Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

A survey is not a study.

@TehBewilderness

A survey is not a study.

Are you implying this was not a study?

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17135115/

Attempted Suicide Among Transgender Persons: The Influence of Gender-Based Discrimination and Victimization

Affiliations expand
PMID: 17135115 DOI: 10.1300/J082v51n03_04
Abstract
To determine the independent predictors of attempted suicide among transgender persons we interviewed 392 male-to-female (MTF) and 123 female-to-male (FTM) individuals. Participants were recruited through targeted sampling, respondent-driven sampling, and agency referrals in San Francisco. The prevalence of attempted suicide was 32% (95% CI = 28% to 36%). In multivariate logistic regression analysis younger age (

I stated it quite clearly.
It is a self selected survey with no control group.

I know you're not sorry!

Probably right. Since you know so much about me, maybe you also know that my DNA and therefore my biological sex, was determined at conception, and not assigned by a doctor when I was born?

@Thisismytimetoshine The links I referenced have absolutely zero to do with your awful terminology used for someone dying by suicide.

And no, I won’t post them. Do your own fucking research, this thread is for the most part like one giant brick wall. There’s literally no point. Let’s just hope your friends see you all for who you really are before they actually need you to be considerate to something that means so much and all of you decide because you can’t understand it that it’s attention seeking and invalid.

@TehBewilderness

I stated it quite clearly. It is a self selected survey with no control group.

O gosh, this is laughable! What control group and what questions for them do you propose, exactly?

Is it along the lines of "Given that you identify as your assigned sex at birth what transphobic comments have you experienced, and how likely are you to experience suicidal ideation as a result of them?"

You're not giving one lot caffeine and the other lot a placebo and seeing how fast they can run afterwards! There are studies where control groups are needed, and others where they are not plausible

And no, I won’t post them. Do your own fucking research

Its a shame

Time and again on the FWR board (and i know this is aibu) i hear that people are posting facts and figures as well as opinions for the lurkers

I don’t really understand why someone who has researched the subject and one assumes has the facts and figures won’t share them

You could structure the questions differently

Have you ever thought about suicide?
Were there any triggers for those thoughts?

And hey bingo, you can ask anyone regardless of sex, sexuality or gender identity

Targeted surveys invariably capture people who are more likely to have problems, because people who are happy and healthy aren’t hanging around in places where they’re looking for support. The survey showed young people with depression are most at risk of suicide. Unsurprisingly. Then it mentions “gender-based discrimination” which could mean anything.

This abstract of a survey of fewer than 400 people 14 years ago does not, in any way shape or form, demonstrate that using correct sex pronouns leads to suicide, and to suggest otherwise is incredibly inappropriate and manipulative.

There have been real studies where they determined that transgender teens do not experience suicidal ideation any more than other teens do, but that does not serve your transition away the gays and lesbians narrative.

The subject of suicidal intent is really complex and all these self reported surveys are nonsense.

Especially when you have participants which have an abnormally level of self reported disability accompanying their self reported suicidal intent.

You have to ask what exactly is going on there, because theres more than just trans identifying.

Not only this, you need could look at the number of people who dont identify as transgender and suicidal intent and you need look at those who identified as trans and then desisted.

One of the issues here is the assumption that if you transistion you reduce the suicidal intent. But what if that continues if you transition? And what if it reduces if you detransition?

If there are differences here, what does it mean? Does transistion (and then detransistion) makes someone suicidal because transistion didnt deliver on promises or because of botched surgery or because of 'other peoples prejudices'?

The assumption is merely being trans and society not accepting them is driving suicidal intent, but this is a ridiculous assumption.

Are we looking about what the rate of being a victim of sexual abuse is compared to the general population? Are we looking at rates of autism compared to the general population? Unless you look at this, you have no control level for where any suicidal intent might be coming from.

Its NOT good enough to make the assumption that its about how others percieve or accept those who are transgender, as the ONLY reason for what might be happening.

This is not a hard set of things to consider and recognise as possible issues. The fact that no one wants to talk about this and any discussion like this is attacked as simply 'denying someone's identity' which is nonsense. And worse still, it does not help those who are having suicidal intent, by getting closer to understanding what is really driving it.

And it needs to be stressed that when we are talking about mental health we NEED to talk about states of denial and what lies beneath them. Precisely because its mental health and people avoid subjects that cause them distress.

Honestly, its like people DON'T want to help those who are suffering with this nonsense. Its just easier to lash out and blame others - again something in the context of mental health is a sign of something else rather amiss.

But yeah crack on with your bullshit about 'do you own research' and a complete lack of understanding of good practice of how you do research and how you try and take out assumptions (and preexisting bias) from that.

The most distressing part of the argument is the creation of social contagion by telling young people that suicide is the norm for people in their situation.

@NotBadConsidering

Targeted surveys invariably capture people who are more likely to have problems, because people who are happy and healthy aren’t hanging around in places where they’re looking for support. The survey showed young people with depression are most at risk of suicide. Unsurprisingly. Then it mentions “gender-based discrimination” which could mean anything.

This abstract of a survey of fewer than 400 people 14 years ago does not, in any way shape or form, demonstrate that using correct sex pronouns leads to suicide, and to suggest otherwise is incredibly inappropriate and manipulative.

Ok so tell me this:

You want to do research on women's experiences of violence at the hands of men.

Obviously you can't target just women to do this research. And you certainly can't target women who have experienced violence at the hands of men....

Obviously you can't target just women to do this research
Why not? Those with no experience will tell you just that.

The most distressing part of the argument is the creation of social contagion by telling young people that suicide is the norm for people in their situation

And that it’s the fault of how everyone else around them treats them, and that the solution is to change everyone else around them, and change their bodies to change how everyone else around them perceives them, rather than address the mental health issues causing that distress.

OP I'd find it hard to continue to be friends with anyone who insisted on this.

@Thisismytimetoshine

Obviously you can't target just women to do this research Why not? Those with no experience will tell you just that.

I am following the logic of posters who are saying targeted studies can not discern anything meaningful about transgender experiences...

That's not following the logic.
Asking transgender people about their suicidal ideation doesn't give you any indication of the suicide rate in non trans people; it may be equal or greater, indicating that it's not related to their trans status at all.

Why am I not surprised that women’s experiences are now being diminished?

Surveys on violence against women, if they were also targeted to women who have experienced violence would also be limited in their scope.

But the problem is not the surveys themselves, it’s the false inferences from people on the internet with an agenda that’s the problem.

But the problem is not the surveys themselves, it’s the false inferences from people on the internet with an agenda that’s the problem.

I couldn't agree with you more!

1. it's denying reality to 'be offended' by your sex
2. it's denying someone's existence to fail to pander to this state of denial. (great double negative that one)
3. being trans does not have a connection with your underlying mental health except for the strangely high levels of suicidal intent for which we must take an assumed unproven reason for which goes against every basic research principle there is.

Not only this, but you can't discuss or even mention the levels to which people are going to to live in a state of denial and to force others to also pander to this state of denial when everyone concerned knows the reality and is defined precisely because of that reality. You can not be trans or non binary without reference to sex or very rigid gender stereotypes. It is impossible.

Being trans isn't a manifestation of mental illness whilst simultaneously apparently having extraordinary levels of poor mental health which everyone else must take responsibility for, without being allowed to speak openly about it or conduct research which might find ways to allievate this poor mental health.

It's a martyrs charter for want of a better expression.

And shares the characteristics of using the threat of suicide to control others as laid out perfectly in the power and control wheels designed to understand how coercive control works.

This can not stand.

It harms anyone who identifies as trans and it hurts people who object to how they feel they are being controlled by this subversive gender ideology which will not reflect on reality and avoidance type behaviour.

Avoidance type behaviour is known to be a symptom of trauma in many cases.

This MUST be unpicked or we stand to do harm by failing to explore it.

I couldn't agree with you more!
So why are you arguing?

In one study we target women who have suffered violence and as a control women who haven't.

In the other case we expect the group to include trans identifying teens and as a control none trans identifying teens

So we can use women as a group because we have a control.
We can't just use the women who experienced violence to understand their mental state because then there would be no control group

We do make a judge ment ...by restricting the control group to women only it mirrors the other group I. Nature as much as possible, avoiding confounding factors

In the same way, we should not use a group of pensioners as the control group for the transgender teens

Some really good courses for free on Cousera

And actually - I have no particular agenda - I have a huge amount of sympathy for eg. with women only spaces, and for the difficulties with self-id in sport. I don't know that I disagree with anything JKR has said (that I have read, and I accept I am unlikely to have seen her full commentary) on this issue, although I feel that she has sneered at times, which I do find problematic. But I will challenge the problems that I perceive on a point-by-point basis.

But I will challenge the problems that I perceive on a point-by-point basis.

And carry on using the same tropes such as sex is a spectrum because intersex people when intersex people are actively saying they are being used - at expense to their own wellbeing - to justify an ideology which has no foundation in science because all intersex conditions are sex based in nature.

And using the trope about suicidal intent without thought as to why we are supposed to take self reported high levels of suicide combined with an abnormally high level of self reported disability combined with avoidance type behavior and to facilitate this by continuing to facilitate avoidance behaviour rather than asking questions about it and why there is a strange level of self reported disability which is far higher than levels in the general population (this is a control level which when it doesn't match levels in the self identifing trans community should trigger the asking of certain questions even if this is viewed as 'denying existance' because 'science')