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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Friend wants to be known as 'they'

952 replies

namechangeindiana · 17/06/2020 22:00

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

OP posts:
MadameButterface · 18/06/2020 18:59

@Snapespeare

My son has Asperger's and oppositional defiance disorder, amongst a host of other cognitive impairments. It is literally impossible to attempt to patiently explain to him or to 'educate' him on the preferred use of pronouns when a person with a full beard is standing in front of him demanding to be called 'she' or 'they'.

But obviously the need of that person to impose their pronouns and declare him bigotted for not complying with 'they' is far more important than his medical conditions. 🙄

There is NO specific research on mis-use of pronouns and suicidal ideation. There are some studies on transgender people and suicidal ideation that cannot be extrapolated to include the mis-use of pro-nouns. If there is, reference it properly, back up your statement.

The example you’ve used there, of the big bearded person kicking off about an autistic child not calling them she, this happens a lot does it?
englishrosie · 18/06/2020 19:02

YANBU I would find that really attention seeking and annoying

OneEpisode · 18/06/2020 19:57

[quote Linning]YABU, use the pronouns they chose for themselves or stop using pronouns altogether when referring said friend, especially in her face. I promise you, it isn't that hard.

Example if you can't use ''they'' to refer to Sarah, next time you want to refer to Sarah in front of Sarah or introduce her say '' Hey Nathalie, long-time no see, let me introduce you to my friend Sarah, we have been friends since high school, Sarah this is Nathalie, a colleague'' (absolutely no need for pronouns anyway!)

''Yes mum, I am with Sarah right now." (Again no need for pronouns).

Talking about people in front of people shouldn't happen often anyway, so you might want to revisit that.

People who are autistic get a pass I say for obvious reasons but if you are not autistic or suffering from any other diagnosis that might impair your ability to do this, you are being very unreasonable and quite a bad friend.

Not sure why someone wanting to be referred to as something else than their original name/pronouns is making you ''very uncomfortable'', most people have nicknames or names that have nothing to do with their birth name due to not liking their actual name and I don't know anyone who feels uncomfortable by it. Wouldn't you feel very ''uncomfortable'' and upset if someone was continuously misusing your name or referring to you as ''they'' when you have repeatedly told them you do not want to be referred as such? If that would upset you why not feel understanding towards your friend as to why they feel upset you continuously mis-refer to them?

I suggest you watch this whole webseries (found it very informative as someone who is a she and initially had trouble with using they) but if you can't/don't want to watch the whole thing, definitely watch this episode, I think they do a brilliant job when it comes to explaining how it works and how not hard it is, though it might come across as impossible at first. (Obviously it's a comedy and for comic-relief purposes so not meant to be 100% serious nor realistic but the messages, issues and explanations this webseries bring to the forefront is definitely valuable, regardless of one own personal beliefs (or disbelief) and opinions of non-binary individuals).

[/quote] I’m still at page 23 but I watched this episode as our San Fran friend gave it as an example of good behaviour. The main event is that the femme queer character, apparently late 20s, is invited by a friend from college to what appears to be one of those American wired baby scan sex announcement parties. She and 3 uninvited “queer” friends arrive empty handed to a party already in progress. They help themselves to the refreshments, discuss amongst themselves how they can’t tell the rest of the guests apart, the femme describes the the nights before’s sex very explicitly until directly asked to stop for long enough for the “reveal”. This is a blue centred cake, which to the hostess means boy, but she is educated by an enby she has never met before and who hasn’t paid for the sodding cake and the unborn baby is declared a theybe. I couldn’t watch anymore, but it is not an example of good behaviour.
OneEpisode · 18/06/2020 19:59

I meant weird not wired. I’m British and have never been invited to such a thing though.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 20:00

A theybe! They can get to fuck with that one.
What is wrong with these nut jobs?

ddl1 · 18/06/2020 20:03

Asking to change pronouns is asking others to change how they relate to you and how that affects their own identity. If you have a close relationship with them it is also asking them to also change this retrospectively too, so if you had a sister as a child how does this affect your memories and history and also how you relate to other when they ask you whether you have a brother or sister going forward.

But that applies to ALL SORTS of things. If you marry; divorce; come out as gay; decide to have children or not have children .. all these things have an impact on others who know you. Should people not be allowed to make their own decisions about their own lives because someone else may be impacted and feel that it affect them? (I am not talking about situations where someone else is required to give a lot of time or money to support you; but where your identity might have some sort of emotional impact on their identity.) I'm afraid this reminds me of the days when women, in particular, were expected to live according to others' expectations.

If someone really finds that the pronouns stick in their throat, then avoid using pronouns. It may sound clumsy to keep using the person's name or a circumlocution ('Mary had lunch because Mary was hungry' or 'because of hunger') but better than deliberately defying a person's wishes just for the sake of defying them.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 20:07

But that applies to ALL SORTS of things. If you marry; divorce; come out as gay; decide to have children or not have children .. all these things have an impact on others who know you.
Should people not be allowed to make their own decisions about their own lives because someone else may be impacted and feel that it affect them?
You have missed the point by a country mile, if you think those things are valid comparisons.

CodenameVillanelle · 18/06/2020 20:10

@EarringsandLipstick

What?

Why is it 'attention-seeking'?

It's the individual's prerogative to choose what pronouns they'd prefer. It's not exactly a new thing.

No it really isn't That's compelled speech, enforced participation in a very strange worldview and not something worthy of respect tbh.
CodenameVillanelle · 18/06/2020 20:11

[quote RiverCrossing]@Bmidreams Gosh you sound like a treat.

OP, with the greatest respect, it’s not about you. Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you.[/quote]
What absolute utter bollocks

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 20:16

RiverCrossing has been asked at least three times to share the results of their extensive research. That haven't.

I wonder why? 🤔

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 20:17

They haven't! Of all fucking threads to misuse they...

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 18/06/2020 20:21

Talking your summary at 15.40 was excellent. Articulate, calm and reasoned. I am going to try and remember it for conversations in RL (instead of allowing my emotion around this topic to cloud how I word the message . I think it will strike a chord with many lurkers, thank you 🙏

Also not at all surprised more on those codswallop suicide stats hasn't yet been shared.

midgebabe · 18/06/2020 20:22

Google scholar search

I have found reported evidence that transpeople report thinking about suicide and correlate it to being bullied about their identity/presentation , and I guess they could see a difficulty with pronouns as a form of bullying

Nothing about actual suicides or suicide rates ( which I am glad about to be honest )

AwakeNotWoke · 18/06/2020 20:42

It is their decision to make but it is not one I have to respect or adhere to.

I adopt a 'live and let live' approach for most things, if there is no harm done, but frankly I think it is regressive, promotes gender stereotyping and is, overall, harmful to our society. I would unfortunately give up on a friendship where the person began to insist on this.

SirVixofVixHall · 18/06/2020 20:46

Has there been something in the water in the US for the past decade ?

TehBewilderness · 18/06/2020 20:52

“Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later that debt is paid.”

IAmFleshIAmBone · 18/06/2020 20:54

If someone had a psychotic illness would it be bullying to not pander to their delusions?

RiverCrossing · 18/06/2020 20:54

@Thisismytimetoshine Referring to people dying by suicide as ‘offing themselves’ is completely horrendous and insensitive. Sometimes mumsnet really does amaze me with the narrow minded judgey opinions that are voiced here.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 20:59

[quote RiverCrossing]@Thisismytimetoshine Referring to people dying by suicide as ‘offing themselves’ is completely horrendous and insensitive. Sometimes mumsnet really does amaze me with the narrow minded judgey opinions that are voiced here.[/quote]
It's because I don't believe it. Give me the results of your research??

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 21:00

Ok, so deliberate, intentional misgendering of people is considered incompatible with human dignity, and conflicts with the fundamental rights of others legal ruling: www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/experts/legal/Misgendering-the-importance-of-pronouns-in-the-workplace

As such it is an example of transphobia:

How are people transphobic?
Transphobia can involve name-calling, discrimination and even violence. Find out more about bullying.

Transphobia can include deliberate misgendering of people – for example, calling a trans woman (someone assigned male at birth but is female) ‘he’ or even ‘it’ even though the person knows that they are a woman.

young.scot/get-informed/national/what-is-transphobia

Gender-based discrimination has been shown to be associated with attempted suicide amongst transgender persons:

^In multivariate logistic regression analysis younger age (

AwakeNotWoke · 18/06/2020 21:01

Every @alittlelower said at 16.10. I do not subscribe to that ideology. Stop trying to force me to.

Protected characteristics under the Equalities Act include gender reassignment - fine. Great!

Sex - also great, although there seem to be large swathes of the population that don't think biological sex exists. Bizarre.

Gender as a concept is not one, and particularly the invented, completely made up, non-existent, non-gender of non-binary. That is part of an ideology I consider damaging and do not subscribe to.

AwakeNotWoke · 18/06/2020 21:03

Sorry @suggestionsplease1 I can't take anything seriously where it states sex is 'assigned at birth'

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 21:04

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17135115/

Attempted Suicide Among Transgender Persons: The Influence of Gender-Based Discrimination and Victimization

Conclusion in this study: "increasing societal acceptance of the transgender community and decreasing gender-based prejudice may help prevent suicide in this highly stigmatized population."

TehBewilderness · 18/06/2020 21:04

A transgender person calling people cis is transphobic.
That is the logical conclusion of your misgendering argument.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 21:05

@AwakeNotWoke

Sorry *@suggestionsplease1* I can't take anything seriously where it states sex is 'assigned at birth'
Don't be disingenuous! I know you're not sorry!
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