Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@midgebabe

In one study we target women who have suffered violence and as a control women who haven't.

In the other case we expect the group to include trans identifying teens and as a control none trans identifying teens

So we can use women as a group because we have a control.
We can't just use the women who experienced violence to understand their mental state because then there would be no control group

We do make a judge ment ...by restricting the control group to women only it mirrors the other group I. Nature as much as possible, avoiding confounding factors

In the same way, we should not use a group of pensioners as the control group for the transgender teens

Some really good courses for free on Cousera

These proposals are not plausible .

For eg "In the other case we expect the group to include trans identifying teens and as a control none trans identifying teens"

So what do you ask the non-trans identifying teens to try to get a control condition for the experience of transphobic remarks?

And then afterwards what do you ask them about their suicidal ideation as a result of transphobic remarks?

Surely the accurate parallel to your proposal (seeing that you propose women who have suffered violence as the experimental condition -it grates on me to use this language when I am fully aware these studies are not amenable to the experimental/ control condition studies using independent variables, but I am trying to follow you along) and women who have not experienced violence as the control conditions....is then that the experimental condition should be trans teens who have experienced violence vs control group of trans teens who have not experienced violence.

Why are you proposing trans teens vs non trans teens, to discern gender-based discrimination? This is not an accurate parallel to women who have experienced violence vs women who have not experienced violence....

Why are you now making a straw man argument about women who have suffered male violence to try and suggest that these trans surveys lack credability?

Instead of trying to twist what people have said in an almightly disingenuous way can we instead address why a survey with extraordinary levels of self reported disability in those who self identify as trans might be a problem and what needs to then be explored to give an explanation to this strange phenomenon?

This is a thread about trans identity after all and your argument is that we must adhere to pronouns because of apparently high levels of suicide in those identifying as trans.

And this argument is deeply flawed and everyone wants to avoid discussing why its so problematic.

Well yes I do think trans versus none trans teens would show a lot of gender discrimination against both groups actually, but I would try to design an experiment to avoid that bias

( I define gender discrimination as that which occurs not directly from someone's sex but from the norms that society places around that sex, so, bullying a girl who is good at maths is gender discrimination whilst grabbing the boob is pure sex bullying )

And what I am trying to Do is prevent researcher bias , which you seem to have a lot of, in fact you seem afraid of what a control group will show

I believe I demonstrated earlier suitable questions that would elicit gender identity based bullying, suicidal thoughts etc without framing them in that way, and thus without steering the minds of the either group

Does one group experience more suicidal thoughts than the o5het?

What is the cause of 5hose thoughts?

Rather than putting ideas and words into people's heads by ask8ng about pronouns or other very specific issues

They and them is plural... So I don't get it. It would be difficult for me... I'd try but it doesn't make sense.

Why are you proposing trans teens vs non trans teens, to discern gender-based discrimination?
I thought we were talking about suicidal ideation in trans people? midget wasn't proposing anything of the sort.

@RedToothBrush

But I will challenge the problems that I perceive on a point-by-point basis.

And carry on using the same tropes such as sex is a spectrum because intersex people when intersex people are actively saying they are being used - at expense to their own wellbeing - to justify an ideology which has no foundation in science because all intersex conditions are sex based in nature.

And using the trope about suicidal intent without thought as to why we are supposed to take self reported high levels of suicide combined with an abnormally high level of self reported disability combined with avoidance type behavior and to facilitate this by continuing to facilitate avoidance behaviour rather than asking questions about it and why there is a strange level of self reported disability which is far higher than levels in the general population (this is a control level which when it doesn't match levels in the self identifing trans community should trigger the asking of certain questions even if this is viewed as 'denying existance' because 'science')

Meh, your trope, other people's thought-through and reasoned understanding of a difficult topic. Horses for courses.

Please read through my posts and appreciate that at no point have I had to use intersex people to justify any ideology - I am heartily sick of this wilful misunderstanding, from what seems like otherwise fairly intelligent posters.

The OP has given a scenario where none of us can judge whether their friend is 'intersex/DSD or transgender. On that basis I have proposed the most respectful way forward regarding communicative interactions with them and about them, and I have not assumed anything about their status.

Why is it so hard to get your head around that? Why do you need to make assumptions?

Not content with side tracking about intersex, we are now determining how best to construct a survey for trans teens.

When a well constructed study specifically on people being distressed specifically by others using the correct sex pronouns for them is published, I will read it and analyse it. Until then, telling the OP that doing so risks suicide in the friend is hugely inappropriate.

and I have not assumed anything about their status.
You've spent half the thread banging on about intersex people, despite being asked to stop as it was completely irrelevant and inappropriate.

Well yes I do think trans versus none trans teens would show a lot of gender discrimination against both groups actually, but I would try to design an experiment to avoid that bias

Yes let's talk about age a bit here.

There are very clear pattern between transitioning and at what age.

It's a sex based pattern strangely.

Odd.

Yet we have to lump all trans people into the same research group and ignore this sex based pattern. And what this sex based pattern might be concealing.

Odd.

And this means we then have to study suicide in self identified trans people as one sexless, ageless lump. Again against any reasonable scientific study because to do so would be transphobic. Rather than thinking 'hmm we have two clear groups here. Perhaps there are at least two things going on here'.

Instead we come up with this strange hypothesis that because there is apparently a high level of self reported suicidal intent it's for the singular reason of people not being accepted for their gender identity.

Why?

This makes no senses whatsoever.

Hmm...

Strokes chin.

It's a mystery to me.

My pronouns are them and they and you should bury your head in the sand and just accept it cos I say so and if you don't i'll probably kill myself cos sex is a spectrum despite what intersex people say.

And 'shut up bigot' is an acceptable response to this?

Just WHAT?

@Thisismytimetoshine

and I have not assumed anything about their status. You've spent half the thread banging on about intersex people, despite being asked to stop as it was completely irrelevant and inappropriate.

Oh, I give up! And I retract my previous statement about fairly intelligent posters.

To make the statement you are making you have to assume that OP's 'friend' is not intersex, right? Now what is it about the OP that allows you to make that assumption?

Given that you, and none of us, can clarify whether or not the friend is 'intersex' why is, and that them being intersex is, in fact, entirely congruous with their request from the OP - why are you saying that my posts are "completely irrelevant and inappropriate"?

You are obsessed

Why is it so hard to get your head around that? Why do you need to make assumptions?

Nope. I can generally smell bullshit when people start throwing so many strawmen around that I wonder if I'm at a wizard of oz audition.

@NotBadConsidering

Not content with side tracking about intersex, we are now determining how best to construct a survey for trans teens.

When a well constructed study specifically on people being distressed specifically by others using the correct sex pronouns for them is published, I will read it and analyse it. Until then, telling the OP that doing so risks suicide in the friend is hugely inappropriate.

No one has said it risks suicide in the friend. I pointed out there are links, and the importance of being supportive because of that.

news.utexas.edu/2018/03/30/name-use-matters-for-transgender-youths-mental-health/

www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2020/01/16/using-childs-identified-pronouns-might-feel-complicated-its-crucial-heres-why/%3FoutputType%3Damp

Both of these articles have links and/or references to specific pieces of research, with figures, to support the statements in this thread that use of preferred pro nouns significantly impacts mental health.

What’s inappropriate is people choosing - because it is a choice - to ignore the wishes of another because they don’t understand or think it’s invalid or that they know better. It’s really really sad and I can only imagine how many of you would have disappointed friends who simply wouldn’t understand why you can’t support them.
Gender identity is essentially a person’s emotional and psychological sense of who they are - and whilst you might not ‘get it’, pandering, as so many of you term it, to protecting your friend’s emotional and psychological well-being is something I would have thought any half decent friend would do. And if not, well then the people who need your support and can’t count on it are better off without you anyway.

@suggestionsplease1

It's because people cannot help but jump the gun at the mention of ''intersex'' because the FACTUAL reasoning that there is no way to know if someone is intersex until they share their medical information with you, irks people as it weakens their argument that it is okay and appropriate to make assumptions based on looks to determine someone's sex.

I personally thoroughly enjoyed your posts. So thank you for them. Wasn't surprised one bit by the rest of the thread and responses, only makes me happy that the world isn't evolving on the same tune as Mumsnet on this topic and others, thankfully! (And I am now feeling quite a sense of relief over Brexit, in all honestly.)

Please can someone advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

You can not discern this from this post, and the 'friend' is under no obligation to reveal private medical information if they for eg. have ovotestes.

You must therefore acknowledge that you may never know if they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

Then it is up to you how you respond to this individual's request to be referred to as 'they', based on your deficit in knowledge as to whether they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

If you insist on still using 'she' and 'her' when that individual, although raised as female, has now discovered that they have ovotestes, and has requested that others use 'they' to try to reflect their new understanding of their biological reality - is that not disrespectful?

Considering you just don't know, and have no right to know their private medical information - why shouldn't 'they' be used in these situations of uncertainty?

You're like the Duracell bunny...

Please can someone advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

You can not discern this from this post, and the 'friend' is under no obligation to reveal private medical information if they for eg. have ovotestes.

Oh look its Worzel.

@Linning Thanks, have enjoyed reading your posts too! I am done for tonight!

I said it upthread and I will say it again.
If you have to walk on eggshells for fear of offending a friend you are likely in an abusive relationship.

RiverCrossing

Your first link is about preferred names, not pronouns and the Washington Post article is an opinion piece. Embedded in the opinion is are two links purporting to show evidence of the importance of pronouns.

It links to a mobile survey of College campuses which shows those in the gender minority group have higher levels of mental health concerns. It does not specify anything about pronouns.

The second link is the same study as your first link: about preferred name, not pronouns.

So again, nothing to suggest pronoun use affects suicide.

If I had just found out I was intersex and didn’t want anyone to know, the very last thing I would do is to inform my mate of TWENTY FOUR YEARS that she was to address me by different pronouns.
Absolutely fecking hilarious.
‘But intersex’
‘But intersex’
‘But intersex’
Oh. ‘Suicide!’
‘Intersex’
‘Suicide’
Such derailing much. A classic example.
Stop it, mate. You’ve been repeatedly reminded of the wishes of the DSD community and are deliberately trashing their own wishes whilst claiming to advocate. It’s embarrassing.

Gender identity is essentially a person’s emotional and psychological sense of who they are - and whilst you might not ‘get it’, pandering, as so many of you term it, to protecting your friend’s emotional and psychological well-being is something I would have thought any half decent friend would do. And if not, well then the people who need your support and can’t count on it are better off without you anyway.

You do not have a single individual identity though. This is the problem.

Your identity is multifaceted and is relational as well as individual. When you try and change your individual identity it is not happening in isolation.

It's is relational to others who have a stake in it, because it also affects their identity.

This results in the problem that, you can only change identity with consensus or by force.

It is not about others being 'unsupportive' in many cases. This trope needs to be dissected and challenged. It places blame on someone often unfairly for not immediately and suddenly readjusting their own identity to match the expectations of another. Psychologically this is an impossible ask if you have formed a close relational identity with someone based on certain known factors. Removing those foundations can be destructive to others in a family unit or close friendship.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation

This destroys families in multiple ways. The wife who now has to merely passively accept she is a lesbian. Children who have to cope with their parental security disrupted now having to call Dad, Mum. Siblings who are overlooked or have their histories erased and their place in the family as eldest and only son is now younger brother of two boys. A close friend who has been close to their 'second sister' since they were babies. This isn't small stuff. This reconstructs your understanding and perception of the world.

Is isn't just being nice and respecting pronouns. They 'aren't the same person they've always been' because they are literally asking you to treat them differently to before.

The failure to recognise this, and address it is a massive part of the problem if relationship breakdown. The emotional workload this requires is enormous.

Your posts go straight to the nub of the matter, RedToothBrush.
Anyone still arguing in the face of them is doing so with their own agenda.

And mums have to pretend the first fourteen years of their daughters life didn’t happen. Never look at pictures again. Never mention anything about family history. The person before the pronoun change has never existed and must not be mentioned.
Sisters have to erase all shared memory.
Family photos can’t even be used by them as they include the sister-that-we-have-to-pretend-never-existed. No memories. Erase your thoughts.
Awful. Distressing. Abusive, actually.
In the name of a shiny new identity based on a lie.
Tsk.