Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@BatShite - I would find saying "it" rather odd too. It sounds rude to refer to someone as "it". I suppose it does make more grammatical sense though than referring to someone as "them" or "they" and overall I'd probably prefer it.

Iesu Mawr. My poor children living through this.

It refers to inanimate objects only. I'd question the mental health of anyone demanding to be referred to as It.

*Also for clarity, I still have never as far as I know..used someones pronoun when talking to them. However..it seems to get back to them if you slip up when they are not there. Espeecially with the screamy types. Which says, that someone must be running back and forth telling the non binary person that someone made a mistake. In which case, if that person knows how much it 'upsets' the non binary person, why go running and telling? Surely that makes it worse..as you are consciously telling them something that will upset them, when if left alone noone would be any the wiser. I figure such people, who do reports on language used..are just drama queens tbh.

I have used pronouns when say..my mum has rang and asked how a friend is and they are with me though. I guess that could cause some issues if the person I was with was one of the massively sensitive ones..

Because pronouns are descriptors of physical realities that don’t change, whereas honorifics and surnames are descriptors of social status, which does change.

That is, if you reject the extensive research on gender that is different to sex. My point for this example was to counter the common argument in this thread that changing the way someone is identified is supposedly too difficult for some people to adapt to (rather than, as your comment suggest, that they refuse to due to ideological differences).

See, I don't even understand the point there.
You have changed how you perceive yourself, how I perceive you hasn't changed at all. Why should it?
Perception is literally instinctive, you can't be instructed to perceive something in a certain way, even if that way was actually going to be beneficial to you. Mental Health professionals will testify to that, I dare say.

This goes back to my point about how identity is formed and how people crucial to an initial identity can not win.

Since identity is formed on an individual AND a family / close friend level / AND a social level, you can't just decide to change your identity on an individual level. You don't live in isolation. It has an impact on others and this should be being better addressed / discussed.

Asking to change pronouns is asking others to change how they relate to you and how that affects their own identity. If you have a close relationship with them it is also asking them to also change this retrospectively too, so if you had a sister as a child how does this affect your memories and history and also how you relate to other when they ask you whether you have a brother or sister going forward.

This is where it starts to become impossible for others who have a shared close identity with someone before they decided to change, if there really isn't any understanding of what is being asked and how this can not, with the best will in the world, 'just be done'.

They are effectively being asked to do the impossible on several levels.

Some people will try to 'obey' the new rules, but this won't be without considerable cost and without the constant feeling of 'walking on eggshells' / being under the ultimate control of the one asking for them to change their behaviour / perceptions boundaries. This is extremely unhealthy and potentially damaging for someone trying to desparately trying to do it out of love / to be kind.

Something has to give in this process.

More often than not, its the entire relationship. Thats not because someone is bigoted though. Its because of how identity and how you relate to others through identity works.

OP it’s only a matter of time before your friend starts referring to you as, not a woman but as a cis woman. 🙄

I’ll happily call someone he, she, him, they or whatever the hell they want to be referred to but don’t refer to me as a cis woman. EVER.

A friend’s “daughter” (son?) has gone from Kate (she) to James (he) to Kate (they). It’s hard to keep track.

I'm getting so tired of the "it's not about you" response to every query on how to tackle a sensitive subject. It's about BOTH parties involved (regardless of the subject because it is AFFECTING both parties) and trying to figure out a solution that resolves conflict without either party feeling marginalised or humiliated. Just dismissing a genuine question when someone is struggling is pretty dismissive.

Sorry if I sound short but the high handed flinging about of this phrase is beginning to be shorthand for "Learn your place" and "Only other people are important" which is patently nonsense if you are trying to have a conversation.

A friend’s “daughter” (son?) has gone from Kate (she) to James (he) to Kate (they). It’s hard to keep track.
How is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

I think, given what you've said, it's probably easier for you to just refer to everyone as 'they' - then you will achieve your aspiration of not " having to think about it all the fecking time."

Ah but calling everyone they..will be misgendering those who prefer she or he!
Nearly finished thread, replies keep getting added when I get there

Not surprising in the slightest that people with DSDs have been brought into something that is fuck all to do with them, again, despite many advocacy groups for such people wishing not to be associated with gender issues. But the wishes of the people with DSDs matter not, when theres a time you can try and use them to prop up your argument I guess.

OP, you’re a better person than I am. You tried, I wouldn’t of even done that

She’s not appreciating your efforts. Ditch her !

@namechangeindiana

I did not ask this question to start a fight but that's what seems to have happened.

I asked because I don't really understand it. I don't understand why the use of different pronouns has suddenly become such a big thing, and where that came from.

I think it's odd to suggest I shouldn't be allowed to answer the phone to my mother during the middle of a pandemic and that I can't say 'I'm with my friend, she's fine' (I know, I should've used they).

I just thought that I should educate myself further and I would maybe understand it better with some input from other people.

I haven't read all of the responses as there are so many.

I guess it just seems like a bit of a fad to me...

namechangeindiana this thread has indeed moved away from your initial question and it must be quite bewildering to have this fight, as you say, going on around you.

It is hard to understand the phenomenon without being aware of the wider picture of “trans rights activism”, of which people who identify as “non binary” and ask to be referred to as “they” are a part.

Some people believe this is a crucial civil rights movement and that those who resist it are horrifically right wing bigots.

Others, like me, think that it is as far from being a civil rights movement as you can get and is actually a form of covert male supremacism and misogyny that poses a real danger to the rights and safety of women and girls, and to the proper safeguarding of children.

(Interestingly, while the resistance to it all in the USA has largely been led by the Christian right, here in the UK it’s been led by left-wing feminists, not known as being the biggest bigots on earth heretofore, and yet now roundly denounced by transactivists as “literal Nazis”, among other epithets. They like to claim we’re receiving “funding” from the Christian right in the US (ha!);whereas the truth is that it is transactivists who are an immensely well funded political force backed by more than one billionaire, and who have achieved astonishing levels of influence in government and every institution you can think of, from the NHS to the police, schools, academia, big business, the media...

Perhaps you’ve seen some of the furore around JK Rowling over the last week or so, because she stuck her head above the parapet and spoke up in defence of women and girls. This is the most toxic climate in which to be a woman with an opinion that I can ever remember, and that’s saying something as I was a teenager in the 70’s.)

One of the hallmarks of transactivism is a vicious authoritarianism - one way you can tell it’s not a genuine civil rights movement at all, IMO - and it sounds like your friend is going down that route. Do as I say! Comply! Don’t have your own opinion! No debate! No mistakes allowed!

Obviously I can’t generalise, but my experience of those who identify as non binary has been that they are either deeply narcissistic or deeply damaged, or both. I’ve seen it be a way of deflecting attention from difficult, painful issues they don’t want to deal with: for NB women those are often issues to do with experiences of objectification or abuse.

I don’t think you’re being awful at all for finding it strange. It sounds like you have actually given it your best shot, but it’s still not good enough for your friend. Which to me says a lot more about her than it does about you.

I know it’s difficult it she’s a really close friend but there has to be some give and take in any relationship and with what you say about your own challenging circumstances, it somehow doesn’t seem as if there’s a lot of give coming from her. Please don’t beat yourself up for not getting it right all the time. Maybe you could ask her to demonstrate a way she actually cares about you and your situation - such as not adding this additional item to the mental load you already carry by not giving you a hard time when you forget. Her response to that could tell you all you need to know about whether this is a friendship worth fighting for.

I would find saying "it" rather odd too. It sounds rude to refer to someone as "it". I suppose it does make more grammatical sense though than referring to someone as "them" or "they" and overall I'd probably prefer it.

It was horrific, trying to comply. As I said, a couple of times was enough for me as it just made me feel really horrible to be using it about a person, even though he said thats what he wanted. Very interested in if all those saying preferred pronouns should always be followed would have actually referred to him as it?

I would think not, but am surprised these days fairly often.

With the it thing, there was one person (as seems usual) running backwards and forwards telling him if someone had called him him..which resulted in a meltdown next time they were together. Was just a ridiculous situation. And it seems really really common for randomers to listen to your laugage, then go running to the non-binary person full of tales of which people (women, almost exclusively, men dont really get pulled up) have 'misgendered' them in their absense

Which as I said, I would think is more upsetting and nasty..as the person running backwards and forwards knows how sensitive the pronoun person is about pronouns, and without the person running backwards and forwards, the non-binary person would not be upset, as they wouldn't even know.

@NoMoreDickheads, I don't work or live in Brighton itself, but a lot of staff who work for the same organisation come from Brighton so it tends to dominate the culture rather.

We want to move right away from the south-east, to somewhere properly rural, but won't start looking properly until I retire next year.
I can imagine that if we end up somewhere like rural north Yorkshire, we won't find many folk fussed about this misgendering by pronoun stuff.

Having said that, I think it's just politeness to try and avoid calling or referring to someone in a way they don't like. I used to hate being called Mrs, even though I was married, and sometimes used to pull people up on it. I also hate being called by my full first name, which no-one who knows me has used since I was at primary school. I'm so unused to it that when they call out First name/surname at hospital appts, I often don't realise they mean me.

It's not exactly a new thing

Yes it is. Especially 'they'.

@namechangeindiana

I also feel like it is all a bit self indulgent. I am a black woman and that comes with a lot of it's own issues. I'm a single mother to a toddler and escaped domestic abuse, recently. I'm trying to keep my head above water, as are many other people, and I just find people getting pissed off because I accidentally used the wrong pronoun really, really tiresome.

I think you are absolutely justified in feeling that way.

So sorry to hear about the abuse; so glad you got away. All the best for the future.

If you haven’t seen it already, namechangeindiana, you might be interested in reading this piece from JK Rowling. (Trigger warning: it moved me and a lot of others to tears.)

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

@BatShite

I would find saying "it" rather odd too. It sounds rude to refer to someone as "it". I suppose it does make more grammatical sense though than referring to someone as "them" or "they" and overall I'd probably prefer it.

It was horrific, trying to comply. As I said, a couple of times was enough for me as it just made me feel really horrible to be using it about a person, even though he said thats what he wanted. Very interested in if all those saying preferred pronouns should always be followed would have actually referred to him as it?

I would think not, but am surprised these days fairly often.

With the it thing, there was one person (as seems usual) running backwards and forwards telling him if someone had called him him..which resulted in a meltdown next time they were together. Was just a ridiculous situation. And it seems really really common for randomers to listen to your laugage, then go running to the non-binary person full of tales of which people (women, almost exclusively, men dont really get pulled up) have 'misgendered' them in their absense

Which as I said, I would think is more upsetting and nasty..as the person running backwards and forwards knows how sensitive the pronoun person is about pronouns, and without the person running backwards and forwards, the non-binary person would not be upset, as they wouldn't even know.

It is actually a form of self abuse to demand to be referred to as it.
I would not be complicit in someone else's self harm. Neither should you.

To all those saying it is just rude not to use preferred pronouns. I would have no problem calling a transexual by the sex they are choosing to present as. Because they have a condition called gender dsyphoria, for which there is no cure, and are managing their dysphoria though medical transition to present as the opposite sex. I am happy to help facilitate this treatment for a distressing condition.

For other people I do have a problem. I am not happy to be forced to comply with an ideology I do not believe in and which I think it harmful. A priest does not demand non-catholics call him 'Father'. I will not be forced to call people who subscribe to an ideology which I think is deeply regressive. The new 'gender ideology' solidifies harmful masculine and feminine stereotypes. By an individual rejecting masculine and feminine stereotypes by rejecting their sex, they are effectively saying that these stereotypes DO apply to the respective sexes. To be a woman is to be feminine, to be a man is to be masculine, I don't feel like that ergo sum I am neither a man nor a woman. In a way, it is the ultimate expression of an individualistic society. Rather than form a collective movement to smash damaging gender stereotypes, as feminists did, you are simply rejecting it for yourself, patting yourself on the back, and saying 'job done.'

This is not a civil rights movement, it is an ideology. And I won't reinforce an ideology I deeply disagree by submitting to the language of that ideology. Christians don't make me pray, muslims don't make me do ramadam.

Ah but calling everyone they..will be misgendering those who prefer she or he!

But the beauty of it is that if you adhere to reality and accept your actual pronouns, as have served our language since time immemorial, then you're not allowed to have feelings. Because your feelings are just bigotry. Whereas other people's feelings are Very Important Feelings and must be indulged.

It's all very straightforward really!

It is actually a form of self abuse to demand to be referred to as it.
I would not be complicit in someone else's self harm. Neither should you.

I tried it a couple of times but it felt so so wrong. I probably shouldn't even have tried it tbh. He couldn't even explain why..which was sad in a way.

That's really interesting, Batshite, about the person reporting back on the incorrect pronouns.

I've heard recently on Twitter (from a trans person) about the idea of being an ally being so seductive that some people will tell the person all sorts of things to keep them in their 'victim' status, so the ally can continue to feel good for being an ally. Do you think this is an example of that?

That's so fucked up...

@Kay1341

Because pronouns are descriptors of physical realities that don’t change, whereas honorifics and surnames are descriptors of social status, which does change.

That is, if you reject the extensive research on gender that is different to sex. My point for this example was to counter the common argument in this thread that changing the way someone is identified is supposedly too difficult for some people to adapt to (rather than, as your comment suggest, that they refuse to due to ideological differences).

I'd be interested to see any of the extensive research on gender and how it's different to sex.

I contend that gender is made up nonsense.

I would be telling her to fuck off.
No room in my life for shit like that.