Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Friend wants to be known as 'they'

952 replies

namechangeindiana · 17/06/2020 22:00

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

OP posts:
midgebabe · 18/06/2020 12:41

In fact, given how harmful gender stereotyping is , why shouldn't the default be they and he she be options you may choose when grown up ?

SirVixofVixHall · 18/06/2020 12:43

RedToothBrush
That is such an interesting post and has helped clarify things I have been mulling over.
There is a noticeable desire to erase the past in many trans people, some who have committed crimes.
The trans movement seems to have at its heart a desire for societal breakdown, particularly between family members “find your new glitter family!!” , and there is a focus on moving on from “unsupportive” friends, or “bigoted” parents.
I try and ask myself who benefits from separating adults from their oldest friends, and in particular who benefits from breaking down relationships between parents and children.

On an individual level OP I would find it hard to keep a friend who was angry if I didn’t use her choice of wording.
Has your friend always been a bit of a bully, and very self centred ?

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 12:43

Why should they have to reveal their intersex/DSD status to you?

Because if they want me to not refer to them as the sex I see them as, they will have to explain why. If they don’t want to disclose it, then they will have to accept that people will use pronouns with the sex they perceive, because that’s how life and language works. It’s up to them, it’s not up to me to assume everything and anything, particularly rare stuff.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 12:43

@Thisismytimetoshine

You cannot see someone's genitals, yet you want to identify them based on sex I don't want to have to think about random people's genitals in a social situation, tbh, I want the freedom to assume a big beardy bloke can safely be referred to as he and an obviously (obviously , not just wearing pink lipstick and sequins) female person can safely be referred to as she. Without having to think about it all the fecking time. Or ask. I don't ask, because I don't care. In the same way I don't ask what school they went to / what church they go to / what their favourite colour is / what their Granny's maiden name was. Because I don't care. And I don't care that they think I should.
I think, given what you've said, it's probably easier for you to just refer to everyone as 'they' - then you will achieve your aspiration of not " having to think about it all the fecking time."
022828MAN · 18/06/2020 12:44

given how harmful gender stereotyping is

He/she isn't gender stereotyping. It is using the correct sex pronouns.

Gender stereotyping is 'boys shouldn't wear pink or cry', 'male nurse', 'lady doctor'

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 12:44

@midgebabe

In fact, given how harmful gender stereotyping is , why shouldn't the default be they and he she be options you may choose when grown up ?
Using he and she is not gender stereotyping 🤦‍♀️
suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 12:54

@NotBadConsidering

Why should they have to reveal their intersex/DSD status to you?

Because if they want me to not refer to them as the sex I see them as, they will have to explain why. If they don’t want to disclose it, then they will have to accept that people will use pronouns with the sex they perceive, because that’s how life and language works. It’s up to them, it’s not up to me to assume everything and anything, particularly rare stuff.

It's up to them to tell you which pronoun they would rather you use, not disclose private medical information which you seem to be insisting on.

You don't have to assume anything, you just have to listen to their request and try to respect it, and they have to respect that you might get it wrong at times.

Why can't you do this to preserve and respect the right of intersex/DSD individuals not to have to reveal private medical information?

022828MAN · 18/06/2020 12:56

It's up to them to tell you which pronoun they would rather you use

And it's upto us which language we choose to use, particularly when we're already using the RIGHT LANGUAGE!!

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 18/06/2020 13:01

Intersex groups and individuals have asked many times not to be co-opted into debates around gender identity ideology. It's deeply disrespectful, therefore, to keep bringing them up.

HermioneWeasley · 18/06/2020 13:01

It’s a hard one. My initial reaction is anyone that self centred and unforgiving of an honest mistake is no loss. But if they have been an otherwise good, generous, kind and supportive friend I think I’d make the effort.

If in hindsight they’ve always been a bit of a bellend, I’d let it go.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 13:02

@022828MAN

It's up to them to tell you which pronoun they would rather you use

And it's upto us which language we choose to use, particularly when we're already using the RIGHT LANGUAGE!!

I've already explained at great length, and more than once, why you could be using incorrect language. Please read my previous posts.
Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 13:03

How many Intersex people do you know who present as one sex whilst insisting they're actually the opposite, suggestion? Or insist that they don't have a sex at all?
I wish these people could be left out of these ridiculous arguments; 99.9% of people (if not 100%) demanding to be referred to as "they" have genitalia in line with their sex, with no ambiguity whatsoever.
Leave intersex people alone, they're not part of this crap.

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 13:03

It's up to them to tell you which pronoun they would rather you use, not disclose private medical information which you seem to be insisting on.

And I have the option to ignore them. And I am not ignoring them because I am infringing on their rights as a theoretically rare DSD person, I am ignoring them because I won’t be told how to speak.

Why can't you do this to preserve and respect the right of intersex/DSD individuals not to have to reveal private medical information?

This makes absolutely no sense. Every single person you have ever called he or she in your entire life could have been an intersex person you offended by that logic. Have you asked everyone you’ve ever met? The only way this works is if you call everyone “they” until they tell you they’re not intersex.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2020 13:05

SirVix announcing your pronouns and that others must use them is an assertion of power. There are many reasons people will do this but ultimately it comes down to a feeling of not having enough and/or wanting to assert it over others.

If you put this at the heart of identity politics it changes how its viewed.

Its all about power.

GreytExpectations · 18/06/2020 13:06

It's truly quite revealing to see how many mumsnetters are so offended by the idea of choosing pronouns, it's very telling of the demographic and general attitude on a site like this.

022828MAN · 18/06/2020 13:07

@GreytExpectations

It's truly quite revealing to see how many mumsnetters are so offended by the idea of choosing pronouns, it's very telling of the demographic and general attitude on a site like this.
What an earth are you talking about? When did correctly sexed pronouns become such an offense?!
IAmFleshIAmBone · 18/06/2020 13:08

These narcissists do tend to get upset when people don't confirm to their forced speech and use their special little pronouns. Get a real problem. Imagine having such a fragile ego that your pronouns can cause such distress. Attention seeking at its finest.

Amateria · 18/06/2020 13:11

If these third person pronouns are normally used when the person in question is not there,
a) how do they know they are being used; and
b) why do they care?
Furthermore. Anyone is free to believe whatever they like, but no one has the right to compel the beliefs, or the speech, of others.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 13:11

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

Intersex groups and individuals have asked many times not to be co-opted into debates around gender identity ideology. It's deeply disrespectful, therefore, to keep bringing them up.
Please can you advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

You can not disern this from this post, and the 'friend' is under no obligation to reveal private medical information if they for eg. have ovotestes.

You must therefore acknowledge that you may never know if they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

Then it is up to you how you respond to this individual's request to be referred to as 'they', based on your deficit in knowledge as to whether they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

If you insist on still using 'she' and 'her' when that individual, although raised as female, has now discovered that they have ovotestes, and has requested that others use 'they' to try to reflect their new understanding of their biological reality - is that not disrespectful?

Considering you just don't know, and have no right to know their private medical information - why shouldn't 'they' be used in these situations of uncertainty?

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 13:13

You're not going to give it up on the Intersex thing, are you? Hmm

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 13:15

Please can you advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

Look around you in real life right now suggestionsplease1: how can you discern that any of the people you can see, talk to, work with are intersex or not? So as a result don’t you think

Considering you just don't know, and have no right to know their private medical information - why shouldn't 'they' be used in these situations of uncertainty?

You’re dragging intersex into it on the extremely rare possibility that it may include the OP’s friend when we all know it doesn’t. It’s pathetic.

Xenia · 18/06/2020 13:16

I just got an email from a solicitor and under her name she puts "my pronouns are she and her". first time I have seen that. I suppose it will help us with complicated very long foreign names when you cannot work out if they are female or male if people do that.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 18/06/2020 13:20

@RedToothBrush

Why is it is intolerant not to be compelled by others to use the highly political speech they enforce on you (which may go against your own interests and those who are vulnerable in society)?

But it's not intolerant to throw a temper tantrum and full on wobbler if someone tries to use new names / pronouns and gets it wrong?

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding about what changing your identity / pronouns is actually about.

My experience is there is a total lack of respect for those who are more vulnerable and those who do make an effort but do occasionally get it wrong. Especially those people who have known the individual for a long time and always accepted the individual for who they were, not what they were without question.

This isnt for no reason.

The whole thing about a new identity is about a rejection of who someone was and asserting themselves in a new way to society.

Unfortunately this has a nasty side effect: people who have long term and close relationships with this individual remind them individual of that past. It's not the pronouns that are the problem despite what they say. It's the fact they remember the person's history and identity from before that the individual is trying to reject.

Therefore part of the point of coming out as non-binary is rejecting your own past. That includes a break from the past: and some friends and family that may include.

It is blamed on the 'intolerance' of the friend / family who does genuinely care, but is confused / struggling to adjust to this new identity who isn't 'the person they knew before' precisely because its a rejection of a previous identity.

The reality is though that, even if these close friends and family do adhere to the new language they can never be 'doing it right' or 'well enough' because they still know the previous identity and 'hold the person back' from their new identity. This isn't a deliberate action but a fundamental lack of understanding of how identity works and is formed

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation

Identity isn't merely about an individual. Its almost about a collective formation of identity in how you and other relate to each other. It does not happen in isolation. Therefore people who have played a crucial role in the formation of early identity are problematic to gender politics and the adoption of new pronouns and identity.

Identities are formed on many levels, micro, meso, macro, and global. The micro level is self definition and relationship to people and issues as seen from a person or individual perspective. The meso level is where our identifies are viewed, formed, and questioned from our immediate communities and/or our families. Macro are the connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups as a view from a national perspective. Lastly, the global level is connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups from a worldwide perspective.

So if you are rejecting an old identity this often MUST include the rejection of others who are part of the formation of this identity unless they redefine themselves too.

It is therefore NOT merely language but a request for someone else to adopt a new identity and move forward with you at the same pace and without question.

This is both unrealistic and unfair.

It leaves people on both sides emotionally distressed at 'why can't they accept me for who I am / why are they suddenly jumping down my throat and questioning why I don't love them when I always have and have always accepted them for who they are / what they are'.

This, crucially, does not affect people who are not immediate close family and friends in the same way precisely because these people have not been so important in the formation of earlier personal identity. And it's why 'new friends' or acquaintances don't get the dynamic or why its so destructive to both parties involved. The narrative of the 'uncaring bigoted family and friends' is much more complicated than presented by the media or 'support' organisations. And the absence of support for friends and family and voices representing them is a huge silence which people should be more aware of.

The whole problem with gender politics (particularly when it comes to children and young people) is how pronoun enforcement and changing of pronouns drives a wedge in families and isolates those who are trying to establish new identities - and how this leaves them vulnerable to cultish organisations, exploitation and vulnerable to other forms of abuse. Or alternatively these new identities can free someone from normal rules and leave them to exploit others in a more vulnerable position with no agency and identity of their own (see the trans widows for how this works)

Whether this is by accident or design: especially due to the way this is being commercially promoted without proper safeguarding and in some cases a deliberate undermining of safeguarding is open to debate. Its the exact process that cults use to disconnect individuals from people who have a vested interest in the wellbeing of an individual they genuinely care about.

My point is ultimately this: there are cases where if you are extremely close to someone who has decided they need to change their pronouns, it may not matter how supportive you are and how much you try to use the right pronouns - it will be met with hostility or anger if you do slip up, because your mere presence is the problem through no fault of your own. It doesn't matter what you do, it will never be good enough because you tie them to the old identity they are trying to escape because of your pure existence. I think recognising this frees you from the emotional blackmail and gaslighting (to try and place blame on you rather than the individual taking responsibility for their decision to reject the past and how this impacts on others). And gender identity itself is missold as a magic wand to escape internalising issues and problems in an individuals life, because you can not run away from yourself even if you cut yourself off from everyone in your past.

If people realised this more I think there would be a very different attitude to what gender identity and pronouns is all about.

It is NOT in any way shape or form, just a word.

Good luck OP.

Excellent analysis.
MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 18/06/2020 13:21

It's truly quite revealing to see how many mumsnetters are so offended by the idea of choosing pronouns, it's very telling of the demographic and general attitude on a site like this.

Women don't like gender-stereotype-reinforcing dogma - shocker!

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 13:25

@NotBadConsidering

It's up to them to tell you which pronoun they would rather you use, not disclose private medical information which you seem to be insisting on.

And I have the option to ignore them. And I am not ignoring them because I am infringing on their rights as a theoretically rare DSD person, I am ignoring them because I won’t be told how to speak.

Why can't you do this to preserve and respect the right of intersex/DSD individuals not to have to reveal private medical information?

This makes absolutely no sense. Every single person you have ever called he or she in your entire life could have been an intersex person you offended by that logic. Have you asked everyone you’ve ever met? The only way this works is if you call everyone “they” until they tell you they’re not intersex.

I don't understand why you say it makes no sense.

If I misgendered everyone I met and they told me they would rather I used different pronouns, I would apologise and try hard to use the pronouns they wanted, and ask their forgiveness if I inadvertently messed up in future.

From what I understand of your posts you're saying you would not do this, right? Only if they clarified private medical information with you.

The offense should not be taken at the initial misgendering, but the subsequent deliberate refusal to use requested pronouns.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is closed and is no longer accepting replies. Click here to start a new thread.