Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@NotBadConsidering

Please can you advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

Look around you in real life right now suggestionsplease1: how can you discern that any of the people you can see, talk to, work with are intersex or not? So as a result don’t you think

Considering you just don't know, and have no right to know their private medical information - why shouldn't 'they' be used in these situations of uncertainty?

You’re dragging intersex into it on the extremely rare possibility that it may include the OP’s friend when we all know it doesn’t. It’s pathetic.

It's not extremely rare, a generally accepted figure is 1 in 2000 births as previously stated.

As far as I can see suggestionsplease1 you're bringing intersex people into a debate they've asked multiple times not to be used in.

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

As far as I can see suggestionsplease1 you're bringing intersex people into a debate they've asked multiple times not to be used in.

Nope, you are entirely wrong.

I am responding accurately and coherently to the OP's question. Is that not what we are meant to be doing in these threads?

I'm all for calling people what they want to be called and using their preferred pronouns when talking about them, but if you've known a friend for decades and now they want to change their name and pronouns, you're inevitably going to slip up now and again while getting accustomed to them.

I guess your friend has to choose between keeping a friend who's trying their best to comply and being patient, or getting angry and alienating that friend.

This debate is about deluded individuals who think it's okay to bully people into gaslighting themselves by using language that doesn't make sense.

Intersex people, like everyone else, will be referred to with the pronouns that make the most sense with regard to the sex that they appear to be. We don't give ourselves pronouns it happens naturally, and it's other people who use them about us.

I think it's really shitty to keep bringing those individuals into this, as being intersex has literally nothing to do with 'gender', which is what this whole mess is all about.

She is not entirely wrong, suggestion, that's exactly what you're doing

From what I understand of your posts you're saying you would not do this, right?

No, you don’t understand at all. I would not “misgender” people, I would correctly sex people unless I was told that a person was actually of the opposite sex. Gender and misgendering has nothing to do with it.

If I correctly sexed someone and they asked me to refer them as someone of the opposite sex even though they weren’t, I would not feel obliged to, because I would not be compelled to lie about something factual.

You’re now mixing up gender and sex in your tenuous intersex discussion which isn’t even relevant.

You are. You're using people with differences of sexual development as theoretical props for your argument.

twitter.com/raeuk/status/1272958186174242817?s=21

It's not extremely rare, a generally accepted figure is 1 in 2000 births as previously state

This figure relates to ambiguous genitalia at birth. It does not relate to the number of people who might find out they are intersex as an adult, multiplied by the number who might decide to change pronouns from “she” to “they” multiplied by the chances of being the OP’s friend.

The figure would be 1 in 7 billion.

I would apologise and try hard to use the pronouns they wanted, and ask their forgiveness if I inadvertently messed up in future

Because that doesn’t sound like an abusive dynamic at all, does it

Not read the full thread but wondering, if I did, would I understand what the flappers this means...?

If I correctly sexed someone and they asked me to refer them as someone of the opposite sex even though they weren’t, I would not feel obliged to, because I would not be compelled to lie about something factual.

Makes me think of gerbils...

@SirVixofVixHall

I would apologise and try hard to use the pronouns they wanted, and ask their forgiveness if I inadvertently messed up in future

Because that doesn’t sound like an abusive dynamic at all, does it

Yup. We're back to power...

Language and power. An old idea, but one that just keeps being relevant.

@MilleniumHallsWalledGarden

You are. You're using people with differences of sexual development as theoretical props for your argument.

twitter.com/raeuk/status/1272958186174242817?s=21

Nope.

I am responding to the OP.

I might as well say that you, and many others on this thread are insistent on bringing trans issues into a thread about intersex/DSD identity, given that we have no idea of the status of the 'friend' referred to.

In which case isn't what you're doing a bit disrespectful to intersex/DSD people?

It doesn’t make sense because we all do it subconsciously. Every day with every contact of every human we instantly clock what sex they are. Occasionally it takes a bit longer, but ultimately we, as humans can do it extremely well. We don’t think of it as correctly sexing people because it’s such an innate thing. We do it and we have evolved language to describe what we see. It’s how the world functions.

But now we are being told that, regardless of what we see instinctively, and regardless of the word that we know instinctively describes what we see, we occasionally have to use a neutral word or even the opposite word because to fail to do so hurts people’s feelings.

I’m not willing to comply, personally.

I'd be really curious as to why the change has happened. But that's getting into the nitty gritty which you may not be able to discuss. I suppose you'll get used to it.

I'm assuming they don't want to be seen as a woman? But then... why? Every reason after that tends to offend me 😂

If I misgendered everyone I met and they told me they would rather I used different pronouns, I would apologise and try hard to use the pronouns they wanted, and ask their forgiveness if I inadvertently messed up in future.

I think if it was happening often you'd get pretty fed up pretty quickly. I know I would. Imagine trying to communicate something and your point being ignored by your hearer in favour of asking you to change the way you speak. A number of people on this thread don't seem bothered by that idea, but I can see why a lot would be.

I'll call anybody whatever they want, but they should bloody well give me a bit of time to get used to it, especially if I've known them for many years. If a female friend, for example, changed her name by deed poll to another traditionally female name, I'm sure a period of adjustment would be expected. So why is it any different with neutral pronouns?

Anyone who gets precious about the odd slip up is right up their own self-important arse.

It's not 'a thread about intersex/DSD identity' though. So stop bringing them up.

Please can someone advise how the 'friend' in question in the OP can be discerned to be intersex/DSD or transgender?

You can not disern this from this post, and the 'friend' is under no obligation to reveal private medical information if they for eg. have ovotestes.

You must therefore acknowledge that you may never know if they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

Then it is up to you how you respond to this individual's request to be referred to as 'they', based on your deficit in knowledge as to whether they are intersex/DSD or transgender.

If you insist on still using 'she' and 'her' when that individual, although raised as female, has now discovered that they have ovotestes, and has requested that others use 'they' to try to reflect their new understanding of their biological reality - is that not disrespectful?

Considering you just don't know, and have no right to know their private medical information - why shouldn't 'they' be used in these situations of uncertainty?

___

Can someone please address this post?

@riveted1 it is a completely genuine post. But of course you don't have to believe me.

Nope.

I am responding to the OP.

I might as well say that you, and many others on this thread are insistent on bringing trans issues into a thread about intersex/DSD identity, given that we have no idea of the status of the 'friend' referred to.

In which case isn't what you're doing a bit disrespectful to intersex/DSD people?

You seem to have fundamentally misunderstood, suggestion.
Where on earth did you get the notion that this was a thread about intersex people?

Can someone please address this post?

It’s been addressed multiple times suggestionsplease1: the answer is

• It’s statistically highly improbable to a factor of millions to billions
• It doesn’t matter because the OP is still not obliged to call their friend they if they are perceived as a she
• no one thinks your attempt to drag intersex into it is clever, accurate, or relevant

So give it a rest eh?

Hear hear