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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Friend wants to be known as 'they'

952 replies

namechangeindiana · 17/06/2020 22:00

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

OP posts:
NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 18/06/2020 11:52

Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you.

Oh, please. You are absolutely not gaslighting me into believing that that I contributed towards anyone's suicide by getting their pronouns wrong.

If someone is so distressed, I suggest that they need intervention way beyond the correct use of pronouns.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 11:52

and also been told it's "very odd" that in my part of my country that they/them are common substitutes for he/she. (As have some Irish posters.)
You're assuming who are Irish posters and who aren't.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 11:55

@NotBadConsidering

that they have ovotestes

Ovotestiticular DSD is the rarest of DSD with around 500 individuals reported. I think it’s safe to assume that the OP’s friend is not one of them, and instead is being carried along by the non-binary “they” which is considerably more prevalent. I can reasonably discern the OP’s friend doesn’t have ovotestes because it’s rarer than hen’s teeth.

Are we now at the stage that we have to change our language because a) we need to lie about people’s sex and b) they could have an incredibly rare condition?

That's not a reasonable position to take. So you will consistently use 'she' and 'her' because you feel that, most of the time, the request to use 'they' reflects a fad?

How disrepectful to the people you may come across who are intersex/DSD (1 in 2000 people is a reasonable estimate for people who have genitalia at birth which are atypical enough to make their sex unclear, so not really that rare) and wish others to use 'they' to refer to them... but I guess they are acceptable casualties?

namechangeindiana · 18/06/2020 11:56

@Covidkate but this isn't the case. I am trying and would never intentionally use she/her when I'm with her. I just slipped up.

It is hard because it feels forced and if not in her presence, I'll use she/her. For example if my family asked how my friend was, I'd say 'she's fine' - because I am only doing it to keep her happy, despite the fact that I think it's silly.

OP posts:
SirVixofVixHall · 18/06/2020 11:57

“It’s not a new thing at all”
Yes it is.

AnyOldPrion · 18/06/2020 12:00

So this individual of (to others) unknown intersex or transgender status (they have ovotestes but are reluctant to broadcast this) requests at their work that they are referred to as 'they' in an attempt to find congruence with their new-found biological reality.

They speak to HR about their situation and disclose this recent medical discovery, but request their status is not broadcast to the entire workforce.

You think it's right then, to continue referring to this person as 'she' and 'her', because they haven't handed over their medical report to you and don't want to disclose their personal situation to you?

You have no logical response to my comment and have therefore changed the scenario entirely.

Could you get any more boring?

MilleniumHallsWalledGarden · 18/06/2020 12:00

They can choose what pronouns they would like. What they can't do is force other people to use them.

I agree. It's the height of arrogant self-obsession to police other people's language in this way.

luckylavender · 18/06/2020 12:01

I find it difficult & I think it's an error of language / grammar. It's a plural, it doesn't work. Let's have a new word.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 12:02

It isn't your friend's job to constantly pull you up on this. You need to put your uncomfortableness to one side and be a better friend.
You're dead right, it absolutely isn't her job to constantly pull anyone up on this. But not for the reasons you think Hmm
Honestly! "Reality isn't what you've always thought it was. I'm telling you this, but it's not my fucking job to keep telling you! Just accept it!
RESPECT MA AUTHORATAH!!"

No.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/06/2020 12:04

No new words needed.

She or he are correct.

I object to being referred to as a menstruator.

Words matter.

SVRT19674 · 18/06/2020 12:05

It,s a whole load of crap. As someone else said, the silent majority is with you. I have no time for this. You have to pretend in work environment and keep that silent but in my private life.. on your bike.

Covidkate · 18/06/2020 12:05

@namechangeindiana

You've just said you think its silly.

Its something thats important to them that you think isnt important and you think is silly and self involved

Im not saying either of you are right or wrong. Just that the "its silly" is a feeling that will be dripping through

CHIRIBAYA · 18/06/2020 12:10

I think when you are so focused on finding and using the 'right' language - and this becomes more complicated as gender identity proliferates and changes, for some people seemingly on a day to day basis - you forget about the person in front of you. You don't 'see' who they are in terms of the hundreds of variables that make them unique but reduce them into something much narrower; I think you effectively divorce someone from their humanness (countable and uncountable, plural humannesses!!). I will speak as I have done all my life. I think the human race has lost its way.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 12:13

@AnyOldPrion

So this individual of (to others) unknown intersex or transgender status (they have ovotestes but are reluctant to broadcast this) requests at their work that they are referred to as 'they' in an attempt to find congruence with their new-found biological reality.

They speak to HR about their situation and disclose this recent medical discovery, but request their status is not broadcast to the entire workforce.

You think it's right then, to continue referring to this person as 'she' and 'her', because they haven't handed over their medical report to you and don't want to disclose their personal situation to you?

You have no logical response to my comment and have therefore changed the scenario entirely.

Could you get any more boring?

I found your point uninteresting, and not really worthy of responding.

Correct me if I'm wrong - you were saying that friendships should have a certain level of communication of issues and patience and tolerance for errors made.

I couldn't agree more, and I don't think anyone on this thread would disagree that there should be patience for mistakes made. I didn't think stating the obvious was in need of a response.

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 12:13

How disrepectful to the people you may come across who are intersex/DSD (1 in 2000 people is a reasonable estimate for people who have genitalia at birth which are atypical enough to make their sex unclear, so not really that rare) and wish others to use 'they' to refer to them... but I guess they are acceptable casualties?

If people have ambiguous genitalia at birth (and your figure is an overestimation) then they will grow up using pronouns that suites them, not declare them differently as an adult. The vast majority of DSDs are clearly male or clearly female, even the most of those with ambiguous genitalia and will have had their sex confirmed as children.

This is the issue intersex people have. Their legitimate use of “they” for historical reasons has now been taken over by those using it for identity crises. It’s not disrespectful by me. It’s still normal for people to use the pronouns for the sex of a person they’re perceiving. If a person wants to correct me and say they are actually a different sex not a different “gender” then I will, but I am not going to assume everyone I meet who uses “they” could have a rare DSD because it’s statistically hugely unlikely and that person can blame Stonewall and people like you for appropriation.

midgebabe · 18/06/2020 12:13

Have only skimmed the thread but I have some sympathy with anyone wanting to be a they not she

I guess it's whether you accept that changing language will change how people think.

And if you are really unhappy with the various gender assumptions that are made because of your sex, moving away from all sex based indicators might give you a feeling of control over a world that can be horrible to gender none conformant people

Turniptracker · 18/06/2020 12:16

Perhaps people should just be kind and respectful of their friends? If you think she is being ridiculous then don't be friends with her anymore. Simple. No need to make anyone feel like crap for a life choice which isn't harming anyone else.

Marianneconnell · 18/06/2020 12:22

@Bmidreams

I couldn't pander to this nonsense and level of self obsession. It's my opinion. Don't bother arguing with it. I don't care what you think.
This with bells on
Kay1341 · 18/06/2020 12:24

@Xenia

The murdering of the English language is not great... They is always a plural. We can use "he or she" in some contexts.

The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375.

I don't understand why people find this so difficult. as a non-native English speaker, I have no difficulty remembering to predominantly use he/she when speaking English even my own language doesn't have gendered pronouns. I don't think it's a matter of lying about someone's sex as was said above, but how often is identifying someone's sex actually relevant to what we are saying?

@IAmReportingYouForBBQing
We could make the same argument about saying something different than what are eyes are telling us when identifying BME individuals as British if we consider Britishness beyond nationality. It all boils down to why some people feel the need to define others around them even the categories we use are not clear cut. You cannot see someone's genitals, yet you want to identify them based on sex - how many female characteristics does one need to have to fit in? Is a long haired skirt wearing person always a woman, or a person with facial hair always a man?

Marianneconnell · 18/06/2020 12:25

@Nihiloxica

It's the individual's prerogative to choose what pronouns they'd prefer.

No it's not.

The speaker chooses the words they use.

Making demands about how other people must speak about you in the 3rd person is obnoxious.

Probably easier to phase "them" out rather than going along with this bullshit.

This also , couldn't have put it better
RedToothBrush · 18/06/2020 12:26

Why is it is intolerant not to be compelled by others to use the highly political speech they enforce on you (which may go against your own interests and those who are vulnerable in society)?

But it's not intolerant to throw a temper tantrum and full on wobbler if someone tries to use new names / pronouns and gets it wrong?

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding about what changing your identity / pronouns is actually about.

My experience is there is a total lack of respect for those who are more vulnerable and those who do make an effort but do occasionally get it wrong. Especially those people who have known the individual for a long time and always accepted the individual for who they were, not what they were without question.

This isnt for no reason.

The whole thing about a new identity is about a rejection of who someone was and asserting themselves in a new way to society.

Unfortunately this has a nasty side effect: people who have long term and close relationships with this individual remind them individual of that past. It's not the pronouns that are the problem despite what they say. It's the fact they remember the person's history and identity from before that the individual is trying to reject.

Therefore part of the point of coming out as non-binary is rejecting your own past. That includes a break from the past: and some friends and family that may include.

It is blamed on the 'intolerance' of the friend / family who does genuinely care, but is confused / struggling to adjust to this new identity who isn't 'the person they knew before' precisely because its a rejection of a previous identity.

The reality is though that, even if these close friends and family do adhere to the new language they can never be 'doing it right' or 'well enough' because they still know the previous identity and 'hold the person back' from their new identity. This isn't a deliberate action but a fundamental lack of understanding of how identity works and is formed

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_formation

Identity isn't merely about an individual. Its almost about a collective formation of identity in how you and other relate to each other. It does not happen in isolation. Therefore people who have played a crucial role in the formation of early identity are problematic to gender politics and the adoption of new pronouns and identity.

Identities are formed on many levels, micro, meso, macro, and global. The micro level is self definition and relationship to people and issues as seen from a person or individual perspective. The meso level is where our identifies are viewed, formed, and questioned from our immediate communities and/or our families. Macro are the connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups as a view from a national perspective. Lastly, the global level is connections among and between individuals, issues, and groups from a worldwide perspective.

So if you are rejecting an old identity this often MUST include the rejection of others who are part of the formation of this identity unless they redefine themselves too.

It is therefore NOT merely language but a request for someone else to adopt a new identity and move forward with you at the same pace and without question.

This is both unrealistic and unfair.

It leaves people on both sides emotionally distressed at 'why can't they accept me for who I am / why are they suddenly jumping down my throat and questioning why I don't love them when I always have and have always accepted them for who they are / what they are'.

This, crucially, does not affect people who are not immediate close family and friends in the same way precisely because these people have not been so important in the formation of earlier personal identity. And it's why 'new friends' or acquaintances don't get the dynamic or why its so destructive to both parties involved. The narrative of the 'uncaring bigoted family and friends' is much more complicated than presented by the media or 'support' organisations. And the absence of support for friends and family and voices representing them is a huge silence which people should be more aware of.

The whole problem with gender politics (particularly when it comes to children and young people) is how pronoun enforcement and changing of pronouns drives a wedge in families and isolates those who are trying to establish new identities - and how this leaves them vulnerable to cultish organisations, exploitation and vulnerable to other forms of abuse. Or alternatively these new identities can free someone from normal rules and leave them to exploit others in a more vulnerable position with no agency and identity of their own (see the trans widows for how this works)

Whether this is by accident or design: especially due to the way this is being commercially promoted without proper safeguarding and in some cases a deliberate undermining of safeguarding is open to debate. Its the exact process that cults use to disconnect individuals from people who have a vested interest in the wellbeing of an individual they genuinely care about.

My point is ultimately this: there are cases where if you are extremely close to someone who has decided they need to change their pronouns, it may not matter how supportive you are and how much you try to use the right pronouns - it will be met with hostility or anger if you do slip up, because your mere presence is the problem through no fault of your own. It doesn't matter what you do, it will never be good enough because you tie them to the old identity they are trying to escape because of your pure existence. I think recognising this frees you from the emotional blackmail and gaslighting (to try and place blame on you rather than the individual taking responsibility for their decision to reject the past and how this impacts on others). And gender identity itself is missold as a magic wand to escape internalising issues and problems in an individuals life, because you can not run away from yourself even if you cut yourself off from everyone in your past.

If people realised this more I think there would be a very different attitude to what gender identity and pronouns is all about.

It is NOT in any way shape or form, just a word.

Good luck OP.

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 12:29

@NotBadConsidering

How disrepectful to the people you may come across who are intersex/DSD (1 in 2000 people is a reasonable estimate for people who have genitalia at birth which are atypical enough to make their sex unclear, so not really that rare) and wish others to use 'they' to refer to them... but I guess they are acceptable casualties?

If people have ambiguous genitalia at birth (and your figure is an overestimation) then they will grow up using pronouns that suites them, not declare them differently as an adult. The vast majority of DSDs are clearly male or clearly female, even the most of those with ambiguous genitalia and will have had their sex confirmed as children.

This is the issue intersex people have. Their legitimate use of “they” for historical reasons has now been taken over by those using it for identity crises. It’s not disrespectful by me. It’s still normal for people to use the pronouns for the sex of a person they’re perceiving. If a person wants to correct me and say they are actually a different sex not a different “gender” then I will, but I am not going to assume everyone I meet who uses “they” could have a rare DSD because it’s statistically hugely unlikely and that person can blame Stonewall and people like you for appropriation.

Ok, so you're saying that you will use 'they' for an individual who is intersex/ DSD, providing that they reveal to you that they are a different sex.

Why should they have to reveal their intersex/DSD status to you?

022828MAN · 18/06/2020 12:33

Ive not RTFT but your friend sounds like a flipping nightmare. Why is correctly sexing someone with the right pronouns suddenly so offensive? It's language policing, demanding and self indulgent. I'd back away very quickly.

Thisismytimetoshine · 18/06/2020 12:37

You cannot see someone's genitals, yet you want to identify them based on sex
I don't want to have to think about random people's genitals in a social situation, tbh, I want the freedom to assume a big beardy bloke can safely be referred to as he and an obviously (obviously , not just wearing pink lipstick and sequins) female person can safely be referred to as she. Without having to think about it all the fecking time. Or ask.
I don't ask, because I don't care.
In the same way I don't ask what school they went to / what church they go to / what their favourite colour is / what their Granny's maiden name was.
Because I don't care. And I don't care that they think I should.

SerenityNowwwww · 18/06/2020 12:38

It is just self centred nonsense. God help them if they had relatives like mine (who are lovely) - there is no ‘he/she’ in their native language so sometimes you do get called ‘he’ by the native speakers. And no one dies.

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