Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

The murdering of the English language is not great... They is always a plural. We can use "he or she" in some contexts.

@IntermittentParps same here - as children we were always corrected if we used the term 'she' in the presence of someone, and not their name, as it was considered rude. I still don't do that. ' She is the cat's mother', my mother always used to say!

TimeWastingButFun, what I meant was, I don't think it's correct to say it's ALWAYS rude to use 'she' in the person's presence. My examples are of when it's OK to.

The murdering of the English language is not great... They is always a plural. We can use "he or she" in some contexts.

@Xenia, YOU ARE WRONG. See public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/

The OED says: 'it’s likely that singular "they" was common even before the late fourteenth century.'

I'm a copyeditor. Singular 'they' has been accepted for years, and it's much less cumbersone than repeating 'she or she' or 's/he'.

Maybe it's my inner grammar nazi.
PLEASE could people stop using this phrase?? It does my head in. Knowing how to spell and punctuate is not the same as being a Nazi, ffs.

I've honestly been horrified by the level of ignorance and insensitivity on this thread. I'd thought the majority of posters on MH were educated. Not on this thread...

She would definitely not be my friend! absolute fruit loop!!

Singular 'they' has been accepted for years, and it's much less cumbersone than repeating 'she or she' or 's/he'. Sadly, whilst absolutely correct, none of that is relevant, or of any use, when trying to remember that a long standing friend has suddenly changed their (see what I did there??!!) terms of reference!

I had a friend of 40+ years who was Rachel until 10 years ago when she changed her name, legally, to Ellen. I never remembered it and was always calling her Rach-Ellen. After about 3 months she told me to stop or fuck off. I chose to fuck off. Her attitude was one of absolutely zero tolerance and, depsite my best efforts, 40+ years could not be eradicated that quickly.

So even wothout the GC/TRA axis, personal pronouns are much the same as names. We use them so regularly, so predictably, that it is quite a feat of mental gymnastics to get the tongue to speak against what the eye sees!

I won't be referring to anyone as 'they' unless it's in the context of something like, 'Jane spoke to her GP but I don't know what they prescribed'.

And if I'm considered rude, so be it. The door's that way ->.
To quote a remarkable, much missed woman, "I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar".

My niece is transgender. I always use her male name. However, when I'm not in her presence I don't use a male pronoun because it's a lie. She remains female even though she identifies otherwise.

I don't believe in a magical gender essence and see compelled speech as indicative of a struggle with reality.

Telling other people to lie is not 'kind'.

I did not ask this question to start a fight but that's what seems to have happened.

I asked because I don't really understand it. I don't understand why the use of different pronouns has suddenly become such a big thing, and where that came from.

I think it's odd to suggest I shouldn't be allowed to answer the phone to my mother during the middle of a pandemic and that I can't say 'I'm with my friend, she's fine' (I know, I should've used they).

I just thought that I should educate myself further and I would maybe understand it better with some input from other people.

I haven't read all of the responses as there are so many.

I guess it just seems like a bit of a fad to me...

I also feel like it is all a bit self indulgent. I am a black woman and that comes with a lot of it's own issues. I'm a single mother to a toddler and escaped domestic abuse, recently. I'm trying to keep my head above water, as are many other people, and I just find people getting pissed off because I accidentally used the wrong pronoun really, really tiresome.

My "son" in law is non-binary and has preferred "they". Because I love them I have worked hard to remember that is what they prefer. There were slip ups to start with but all ok. My daughter is trans and I have had to adjust to calling someone who was he, "she". Because I love her I have worked hard to do this and she appreciates it. my "son"-in-law is now also transitioning too so now I have to remember its not "they" but "she". Yes, I have an interesting family... (and we never found the right equivalent to son in law ...)

@Guzel

So this individual of (to others) unknown intersex or transgender status

It’s not called intersex anymore, it’s rightfully recognised as differences of sexual development. It’s a medical condition that doesn’t remove someone from within the two sex classes so there would be no reason for he or she to become “they”. And people with DSD, and their organisations, repeatedly ask that their medical condition is not conflated with transgender issues.

Plenty of individuals with this biological reality or similar prefer to call themselves intersex.

"Some adults and young people with DSD prefer to use the term intersex." www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/

You're making a strange argument - you appear to be acknowledging that their biological reality is not so straightforward as binary male or female and yet saying that this person shouldn't be referred to as 'they' if that's what the would like. So you feel others should continue to use 'she' and 'her' about them then?

And please pay close attention to my posts and address the query I have made - I have given the example of a person of (to others) unknown transgender or DSD/intersex status - it is not possible to discern this from looking at them, and they have no obligation to reveal their ovotestes to you. Are you saying, when this individual asks others to refer to them as 'they', rather than 'she', that should not be respected?

So many offensive things on this thread. It's not a new thing at all and can't believe the amount of dismissal on here.

Also, a lot of you need a serious grammar lesson if you think "Hi Mum, I'm with Sam and they are doing well" isn't grammatically correct

@NotBadConsidering

The intersex thing is complete bullshit. Not only is it further appropriation of intersex to encompass discussions that are clearly not about intersex, for an adult to discover an intersex condition and then decide to change their pronouns as a result must be incredibly rare. Most intersex are either male or female and those that find out the opposite to what they thought don’t suddenly stop referring to themselves as such. For example when Caster Semenya found out about being male, there wasn’t a “they” before transitioning to a “he”.

suggestionsplease1

You’re talking about a rare problem being dealt with in an incredibly rare way and admonishing people for not being sensitive to the possibility. What rot.

There has been no appropriation. The OP has detailed a situation about an individual where none of us, as posters on this thread, can reasonably discern whether they are intersex/ DSD or transgender.

That being the case and the fact that you don't know their situation, that they have ovotestes, because they don't want to shout about it, should you not try to respect their request to use 'they' rather than 'she' or 'her'?

My Nan always said "its none of your business what other people think or say of you". And she was right. I couldn't pander to this navel gazing bull shit. If you change your name, I'll use it. Wear a dress and you are a man? I don't care in the slightest. Expect me to change my language and go through the mental gymnastics to go against what my eyes tell me? Nope. That's called gas lighting and has no place in our society. It's also compelled speech. So no.

Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you.

Absolute bullshit. Anyone driven to suicide by being accidentally referred to by the wrong name/pronoun has severe mental health issues that require significant professional intervention.

Implying that the OP will have blood on her hands unless she plays along is a typical TRA bullying strategy.

@RiverCrossing the rates of suicide for trans and non binary believers are exactly the same as any other section of society with a mental health condition. And that's according the nhs own data so don't come with that bullshit. Don't you dare try to guilt people with fake suicide stats, that's horrible

Yeah, OP, I get you. Is she showing much interest/consideration for what's going on in your life in other ways? Is it only the pronoun thing where she's appearing self-obsessed?

Like every other parent of a primary age child, I have been home educating for the past three months. We spent about a week doing various English exercises and worksheets and writing on the use of pronouns. Page after page of stuff like 'read this story about Emma's new bike', with an illustration of Emma. 'Rewrite the story using he, she and it' where appropriate. So Emma gets changed to 'she', Emma's dad gets changed to 'he' and the bike gets changed to 'it'.

We spend time and effort teaching young children how to refer to things and I can't get my head around the sheer narcissistic arseholery of someome then deciding that she is a good enough description for all the ordinary girls but Emma is so special that she gets a new descriptor just because she wants to be different.

Compelled speech is just that. And it is sinister. The description of someone as 'she' is not about their feelings or identity, it is about what they actually are. An averagely intelligent adult can manage ok I suppose but it's ridiculous to say it's not difficult. Have you seen those little riddle things where you get eg the word blue written in the colour red and you have to quickly choose the colour of the word. It's incredibly difficult to do because when you can read, your brain automatically reads the word rather than seeing the colour. This is just the same.

Do we want to live in a society where you can be accused of a hate crime for finding it difficult to get your head round? Autistic people, the elderly, children, people with dementia, anyone suffering from a bit of brain fog (which, conveniently is often a menopausal symptom). Funny there is such pressure to be 'kind' to those asking for incorrect pronouns, but no concerns about how deeply unkind it is of the people to make those demands.

[[https://www.womenarehuman.com/autistic-teen-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-asking-police-officers-sex-autism-group-condemns-prosecution/
this]] story must be frightening for those with autism or cognitive problems.

that they have ovotestes

Ovotestiticular DSD is the rarest of DSD with around 500 individuals reported. I think it’s safe to assume that the OP’s friend is not one of them, and instead is being carried along by the non-binary “they” which is considerably more prevalent. I can reasonably discern the OP’s friend doesn’t have ovotestes because it’s rarer than hen’s teeth.

Are we now at the stage that we have to change our language because a) we need to lie about people’s sex and b) they could have an incredibly rare condition?

I find it curious the number of people who say it is easy to refer to someone by a pronoun other than the natural one for that person's sex. My MIL was a lovely person but always called people by the wrong name. I don't think, with the best will in the world, most of us have the type of intellect that could reminder to use pronouns counter-intuitively.

It's the individual's prerogative to choose what pronouns they'd prefer. It's not exactly a new thing.

They can choose what pronouns they would like. What they can't do is force other people to use them.

Any friend of mine coming at me with that rubbish would no longer be a friend. It's just ridiculous. Why is she so obsessed with her 'identity'? Who gives a shit?

@namechangeindiana

The issue with these things is that most people who misgender do it because they dont agree with the concept

These posts are always full of "its hard to remember", "it was an accident" but generally it comes down to an underlying belief that the person shouldnt be referred to as they or what ever pronoun they chose.

The pronoun is a bit of a red herring in all these cases because its never actually the linguistics of they, its that they dont believe the other person should be called they.

Ultimately its probably something you lose your friendship over, because this is the new identity the person has chose and you disagree with it.

I changed my name, some people accidentally call me the wrong name and i can see its an accident so tolerate it, but i no longer speak to the people who were doing it out because they disagreed with me changing my name. For me it was about changing my identity and those people were deliberately not doing something, or feel that their feelings about it should override mine.