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Friend wants to be known as 'they'

952 replies

namechangeindiana · 17/06/2020 22:00

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

OP posts:
Brefugee · 18/06/2020 09:53

I'm only up to page 11 but can we just stop with this obnoxious shit

Maybe it's my inner grammar nazi.

Nazis, in case you have forgotten (on account of there being no statues of them, perhaps?) killed 6 million people, among them people who identified differently or were gay or Other. They didn't get their knickers in a twist over being kind to someone and using a different pronoun to make them happy.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/06/2020 09:54

Linning, upthread you said something about how non binary people don’t have privilege, and for me this goes to the heart of the problem.

“Non binary people” includes biologically male people as well as biologically female people. And biologically male non binary people most certainly do have male privilege, however they identify.

Given the historical and ongoing oppression of female people by male people the world over, and the relatively recent partial successes of female people in some parts of the world to address this oppression, what happens when you erase female people as a discrete class? Who stands to gain from this? Who stands to gain if an ideology takes hold that says that how you identify trumps the material reality of sex?

Hint: it isn’t the sex that has always been oppressed, that is still very much the second sex - that can no longer recognise the exact nature of sex-based oppression or organise in a coherent way along the lines of biological sex because the clear, immutable and very materially real and obvious distinction between the two sexes has been deliberately blurred and confused.

You see something wonderfully “queer” and progressive about this development, as if it means that traditional gender roles are being messed around and broken down.

I just see a very cunning way to attack the roots of feminism and make it include and even centre biologically male people: patriarchy reinventing itself for the 21st century in a suitably woke disguise.

The cult of genderism, which includes “non binary identities” and they/them pronouns, doesn’t do away with stereotypical, regressive gender roles: it absolutely depends on them for its existence and therefore reinforces them. Without gender roles there can be no transgender, no non binary. Without gender roles there would be nothing to transition to or from; no system to declare you don’t fit into.

By supposedly “queering” gender roles, you are in fact merely propping them up, IMO. Propping up the the traditional, existing regime: that of male dominance. It’s not the radical act you think it is at all. And it is definitely not kind to women and girls, it’s definitely not true that it “doesn’t cost us anything”.

So please don’t assume that if people don’t want to use pronouns that don’t accurately reflect material reality it’s because they don’t care about people’s feelings, they are resisting progress, they just don’t understand why it’s so important.

It could well be precisely because they have thought in depth about it, and have decided they don’t want to collude in what they see as their own oppression. Because they do care about people - especially female people, including themselves and their own rights. As women should be able to do without being called selfish or mean, if feminism is to count for anything.

Aside from all that, as a pretty nifty linguist myself I just have to acknowledge your exceptional command of what you say is your fifth language. That is a true gift.

AnyOldPrion · 18/06/2020 09:55

I'm still bemused at the fury that people feel when someone asks them to use a different pronoun.

You are possibly projecting the fury. Most pf us are thoroughly bored and simply hope this particular trend will pass sooner rather than later.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/06/2020 10:00

I don't feel it is kind though to perpetuate a myth.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2020 10:01

You'd think people had been asked to give up some basic human right. It's a word.

Except it removes visibility and access to rights. Cos words matter and are political not neutral.

Strangely.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2020 10:02

I don't feel it is kind though to perpetuate a myth.

Quite.

It's actively harmful. Especially the body stuff like binding that accompanies it.

Linning · 18/06/2020 10:05

@NotBadConsidering

I am NOT American, but good try

I never said you were. But you’re surrounded by them and those that think it’s “normal”.

I would expect to be told off by people for purposefully using words I have been expressly told not by them not to use to refer to them yes, I don't have a problem with it, I would fee equally pissed if someone kept calling me ''he'' when I say I am ''she''

I wouldn’t expect to be told off, and if I was I wouldn’t care. If a person kept calling you “he” when you actually are a “she”, an adult human female, then that someone would be wrong. But if you’d told that someone you were a “she” but you are actually a “he”, an adult human male, then my sympathies would be with that someone who you’re trying to make lie.

I was just politely told the pronouns the person prefer and corrected myself

Bonkers. You may has have written

“I was just politely asked to lie and I went along with it”.

Good for you if it makes you happy. I won’t lie and the OP should know that there is no obligation to, despite the trend to do so in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Yes that's why it's at least the 10th post where I repeat OP shouldn't go beyond her boundaries and do anything she isn't wanting or willing to do, but I guess it doesn't fit your need for paranoia and to act as if non-binary folks are out there actually FORCING people at gun point to use the ''wrong pronouns'' so you feel the need to make an argumentative point that agree with me about OP not having any obligation while trying to pretend I have been saying OP should be obligated to use a pronoun she isn't comfortable using.

But thank you for reiterating what I said, about a 100 times now, about OP having free will. Very useful for OP I am sure.

I will continue to ''lie'' (and take even more pleasure in using ''they'') and now I am off to bed as I have to deal with a lot of oppression and prejudice tomorrow as between the racist cops and the non-binary folks out there with guns forcing people to say ''they'' and stuff, one need proper rest to survive the censorship and oppression of the Bay Area.

AnyOldPrion · 18/06/2020 10:06

It doesn't matter that it's rare. It only matters that it is a possibility.

Yeah, no.

Really, I think most of us who have good friends and are adults understand that a certain level of communication is required for friendship to work. A friend wouldn’t have to communicate much info, but they should be adult enough to communicate that there’s something underlying the request that they’re not ready to explain at the moment, but that it is serious.

If a friend of mine makes a demand of me that is inconvenient/requires effort, I would initially go along with it if possible, as I’m a decent person. I would expect patience from them, if I cocked up. They are the one asking for a favour without explanation, and I am decent enough to go along with it, so I would expect the same level of consideration in return.

You do you. I prefer friends who treat me with respect as a minimum.

Fosler · 18/06/2020 10:06

So why is this person your friend? Life's too short put up with this BS! He/she is entitled to their opinion but so are you.

thedancingbear · 18/06/2020 10:09

21 pages of petty intolerance.

what a fucking surprise.

Iwalkinmyclothing · 18/06/2020 10:10

I always find these threads a mixture of depressing and astounding.

If you can't be arsed to use the descriptors your friend prefers and it's such a huge discomfort for you, be honest with them and let them end the friendship.

MrsBobDylan · 18/06/2020 10:12

There is so much to worry about in life, really, really important stuff like racism and discrimination against disabled people.

I can't get worked up over someone who doesn't want to be know as 'he' or 'she'.

I have tried to consider the 'issue' with this issue and I can't understand it. I wonder if it's a combination of attention seeking and having bugger all else to worry about?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 18/06/2020 10:12

@RedToothBrush

You'd think people had been asked to give up some basic human right. It's a word.

Except it removes visibility and access to rights. Cos words matter and are political not neutral.

Strangely.

Yes.
FamilyOfAliens · 18/06/2020 10:13

@Iwalkinmyclothing

I always find these threads a mixture of depressing and astounding.

If you can't be arsed to use the descriptors your friend prefers and it's such a huge discomfort for you, be honest with them and let them end the friendship.

But it’s not a descriptor if it doesn’t describe reality, or what the OP sees with her own eyes, or both.

It’s a demand with emotional blackmail tacked on for good measure.

SirVixofVixHall · 18/06/2020 10:16

What TalkingtoLangClegintheDark said.

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 10:19

but I guess it doesn't fit your need for paranoia and to act as if non-binary folks are out there actually FORCING people at gun point

Gun point? Who said anything about guns? It definitely happens in aggressive social media and on comments though. It’s often not even the person themselves, but a gang of pronoun police. So tiresome, especially when some weak celebrity backs down and promises to “educate” themselves.

I will continue to ''lie''

You don’t need the quotation marks. You are lying if you don’t use the correct sex pronoun.

Here’s some examples of San Francisco:

www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/culture/amp/Businesses-to-customers-Stop-misgendering-our-14865201.php

www.ebar.com/news/news190177

Linning · 18/06/2020 10:20

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Linning, upthread you said something about how non binary people don’t have privilege, and for me this goes to the heart of the problem.

“Non binary people” includes biologically male people as well as biologically female people. And biologically male non binary people most certainly do have male privilege, however they identify.

Given the historical and ongoing oppression of female people by male people the world over, and the relatively recent partial successes of female people in some parts of the world to address this oppression, what happens when you erase female people as a discrete class? Who stands to gain from this? Who stands to gain if an ideology takes hold that says that how you identify trumps the material reality of sex?

Hint: it isn’t the sex that has always been oppressed, that is still very much the second sex - that can no longer recognise the exact nature of sex-based oppression or organise in a coherent way along the lines of biological sex because the clear, immutable and very materially real and obvious distinction between the two sexes has been deliberately blurred and confused.

You see something wonderfully “queer” and progressive about this development, as if it means that traditional gender roles are being messed around and broken down.

I just see a very cunning way to attack the roots of feminism and make it include and even centre biologically male people: patriarchy reinventing itself for the 21st century in a suitably woke disguise.

The cult of genderism, which includes “non binary identities” and they/them pronouns, doesn’t do away with stereotypical, regressive gender roles: it absolutely depends on them for its existence and therefore reinforces them. Without gender roles there can be no transgender, no non binary. Without gender roles there would be nothing to transition to or from; no system to declare you don’t fit into.

By supposedly “queering” gender roles, you are in fact merely propping them up, IMO. Propping up the the traditional, existing regime: that of male dominance. It’s not the radical act you think it is at all. And it is definitely not kind to women and girls, it’s definitely not true that it “doesn’t cost us anything”.

So please don’t assume that if people don’t want to use pronouns that don’t accurately reflect material reality it’s because they don’t care about people’s feelings, they are resisting progress, they just don’t understand why it’s so important.

It could well be precisely because they have thought in depth about it, and have decided they don’t want to collude in what they see as their own oppression. Because they do care about people - especially female people, including themselves and their own rights. As women should be able to do without being called selfish or mean, if feminism is to count for anything.

Aside from all that, as a pretty nifty linguist myself I just have to acknowledge your exceptional command of what you say is your fifth language. That is a true gift.

Very interesting reply, and if it wasn't 2 am, I would take time to answer all of this properly as there is a lot of interesting points and a lot to agree with. (Maybe I will do so tomorrow).

The thing is, and it was purposeful, I did NOT, at any time, state my opinion on non-binary, I did NOT state whether I fully supported it or not, or even if I supported it at all (as a concept which I separate from being polite by using specific pronouns) and if I did, which part etc... I simply said " if someone ask me to use they, I do.'' That's it.

I didn't say " I do so because I believe in it.'' I said. " Using they is no-skin off my back, it makes the other person feel good, it doesn't change anything for me and I care more about the person I am around than the use of a word.'' That's all I said.

My comment about privileges is because while someone who is born male but is outside the norm (whether it's gay, black, non-binary), will have access to privileges associated with being born male, the way this person present themselves will determine how much of the male privilege they benefit from, and will do so at a lower scale than someone who is white, cis and straight.

In fact in the US just this week, Trump revoked healthcare protection for LGBT individuals, specifically trans and non-binary folks, meaning that now, it's up to doctors whether or not they accept to treat patients who are non-binary. Currently it would be legal for a doctor to refuse to attend a non-binary individual in a car crash or about to die without consequences. We are in the middle of a pandemy, I am in the country with the most cases and death. Right now, I would argue that regardless of sex, being non-binary is a privilege. I feel actually currently more privileged as lesbian who happens to be a person of color in the US than I would if I was non-binary (probably even more so specifically born male).

I also think it's important to differentiate non-binary (who identify as neither male nor female) and trans.

Anyway, lots to dig into and I appreciate all the points you brought forward, again, I have purposefully not stated my stance because regardless of how I feel about the concept of non-binary I have strong beliefs about making sure I respect my friends pronouns which is independent of my views, I do want to say that I have thought a lot about some of the stuff you have mentioned and my views on it as a woman/lesbian and I appreciate those points, I would be happy to discuss them, just feel like this would step away from the thread.

Good night! x

SirVixofVixHall · 18/06/2020 10:23

And discrimination against women is surely up there with racism and discrimination against disabled people, as “really important stuff” .
This insidious movement is terrible for women.

Guzel · 18/06/2020 10:23

21 pages of petty intolerance.

In the English language third person personal pronouns happen to be sex-based. Many consider it rude and selfish to compel other English speakers to replace this basic fundamental of our language with an awkward new preference-based rule. (And it is incredibly intolerant to ask it of those who already struggle with using or interpreting our complicated language.)

suggestionsplease1 · 18/06/2020 10:25

@AnyOldPrion

It doesn't matter that it's rare. It only matters that it is a possibility.

Yeah, no.

Really, I think most of us who have good friends and are adults understand that a certain level of communication is required for friendship to work. A friend wouldn’t have to communicate much info, but they should be adult enough to communicate that there’s something underlying the request that they’re not ready to explain at the moment, but that it is serious.

If a friend of mine makes a demand of me that is inconvenient/requires effort, I would initially go along with it if possible, as I’m a decent person. I would expect patience from them, if I cocked up. They are the one asking for a favour without explanation, and I am decent enough to go along with it, so I would expect the same level of consideration in return.

You do you. I prefer friends who treat me with respect as a minimum.

So this individual of (to others) unknown intersex or transgender status (they have ovotestes but are reluctant to broadcast this) requests at their work that they are referred to as 'they' in an attempt to find congruence with their new-found biological reality.

They speak to HR about their situation and disclose this recent medical discovery, but request their status is not broadcast to the entire workforce.

You think it's right then, to continue referring to this person as 'she' and 'her', because they haven't handed over their medical report to you and don't want to disclose their personal situation to you?

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 10:27

21 pages of petty intolerance

Even if you think refusing to comply with lies is petty intolerance, do you think it warrants police intervention? Because that is what’s happening.

IntermittentParps · 18/06/2020 10:30

Using she/ he when referring to someone in theor actual company was always considered very rude.

'Hi Mum. I'm with x. Yes, she's fine.'

'Hi Mum. I'm with x. Yes, we wanted to get together and she suggested a coffee.'

Two examples totally off the top of my head.

TimeWastingButFun · 18/06/2020 10:32

'They' is so odd. I can totally understand and sympathise with people not wanting to be defined as he or she, but one thing you can't magically do is turn into more than one person. And anyway since 'they' is referring to that person, but not directly, it wouldn't be heard by that person so why would it bother them?
Maybe if everyone stopped referring to people as defined by their gender, for instance a totally different word that still means a singular person rather than two or more, it would help. Maybe we need to think up a new word!

Guzel · 18/06/2020 10:33

So this individual of (to others) unknown intersex or transgender status

It’s not called intersex anymore, it’s rightfully recognised as differences of sexual development. It’s a medical condition that doesn’t remove someone from within the two sex classes so there would be no reason for he or she to become “they”. And people with DSD, and their organisations, repeatedly ask that their medical condition is not conflated with transgender issues.

NotBadConsidering · 18/06/2020 10:34

The intersex thing is complete bullshit. Not only is it further appropriation of intersex to encompass discussions that are clearly not about intersex, for an adult to discover an intersex condition and then decide to change their pronouns as a result must be incredibly rare. Most intersex are either male or female and those that find out the opposite to what they thought don’t suddenly stop referring to themselves as such. For example when Caster Semenya found out about being male, there wasn’t a “they” before transitioning to a “he”.

suggestionsplease1

You’re talking about a rare problem being dealt with in an incredibly rare way and admonishing people for not being sensitive to the possibility. What rot.

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