Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@bettybeans

Oh really? How do you explain words like “N*er” / “ Retards” / “fag” , running out of fashion? If not because people kicked fuss about it ? (Not saying those words are eradicated as, as proven by this thread, plenty of people like to hold on to old habits).

Don’t say awareness to how some vocabulary/words impact others didn’t spring changes in the way we speak. People kicking fuss/making other feel bad about certain words is exactly why some of them are not used anymore, not saying there is anything wrong with the pronoun “she/her” and using it as intended but the same way I am technically a “n*er“ (Genetically speaking and skin color wise) and you wouldn’t be wrong in calling me so, I would feel extremely offended if you did, the fact that you perceive me as something (black/woman/gay) doesn’t mean you are entitled to use any words you want to refer to me just because you think they fit. Knowing you are hurting someone’s feelings by purposefully calling them something they don’t want to be called should matter to you more than wanting to hold on to what you perceive as the proper wording. By all means refer to you as you please and don’t let people control how you refer to your own self, but being kind and mindful of how words impact others is very much a common thing of the History of language.

English is my 5th language, not my native one at all YET I still manage to use “they” without fault (mostly) when referring to someone who wants me to refer to them as such. So sorry if I struggle to believe people are struggling to learn a new way to refer to someone in English when billions of people learn English from scratch (a language that often has nothing to do with their native one) and manage to do so just fine.

You said "no need for pronouns" and that it was rude to talk about people in front of those people - those were the things I was calling rubbish.

Pronouns are much less used in my wife's native language. I can't imagine she gives much of a shit which I use for her. She seems to be happy with "she". If she wanted to be "they" I'd think she was being ridiculous, certainly. Whether or not I'd pander to it is a bridge I'll cross if it ever happens.

YET I still manage to use “they” without fault (mostly) when referring to someone who wants me to refer to them as such.

Does this happen often?

Pronouns are sex specific in English. I will not have my speech compelled to refer to someone in any particular way. It’s no different to Trump insisting that everyone call him “World’s Greatest President” whenever we talk about him. If this person was a true friend then she wouldn’t be forcing her friend to change the habits of a lifetime.

The world is not obliged to indulge in someone’s identity crisis. It hurts my feelings to partake in a culture that abandons the significance of biological sex, and erodes rights as a result.

Quite easily explained @Linning. Those words are pejorative and derogatory slurs.

Perhaps it is the English being the 5th language that is responsible for your inability to differentiate between a pronoun and a pejorative.

@BadLad

Yes, I said “no need for pronouns” in those two specific example. Of course if in real life you would spend 20 minutes discussing your friend when hanging out with her it’s different, that wasn’t the point of my post though and my examples were based on my friendship group were none of us would actually take a call when hanging with a friend and have a proper catch up with our mum (again my mum doesn’t most of my friends so I can’t see her being merely interested in their life to the point I would feel the need to discuss them with her other than by confirming I am with them, if relevant), you obviously are part of a different friendship group with different dynamics and acceptable social norms (again I don’t think you can compare wives to a spouse or kid though using a word you know upset them repeatedly in front of them would still be a dick move).

Yes, I am queer so I do have to use “they” to refer to people on an almost daily basis. Haven’t died yet, haven’t even begin to feel uncomfortable or bothered either.

We don’t have gender neutral pronouns in my native language and I actually find it much more uncomfortable and bothersome than being respectful and kind by being accommodating.

Well that's great but when "living as authentic self" depends on everybody else adapting to inauthentic use of language I think it's fair to suggest that it's probably not a particularly authentic situation at all. Plus, we really need to maintain accurate language for other stuff, it's not all just about you.

You do your thing by all means, just leave everybody else to do theirs.

@TehBewilderness
Doesn’t change the fact that I manage just fine while OP’s whose first language, I assume is English, seem to struggle with it. Does it ?

It’s “fine” if she doesn’t want to use the right pronouns but let’s not pretend it’s an impossible task and that she is genuinely trying when foreigners manage just fine. It’s one thing to not want something it’s a full other things to imply changes in language are impossible or terribly hard when plenty of words who were common occurrences for centuries stopped being used all together. Again if one can remember not to use certain words, And to refer to a black persons as a “person of color” rather than “nigger” how hard is it to remember not to use “she” for Sarah and use “they” instead.

Again, I am not here to debate about non-binary. OP asked if she was unreasonable to continuously use a word she knows her friend doesn’t want to be referred as by, I think she is.

If you disagree that’s fine. Doesn’t make my opinion any less valid.

Yes, I am queer so I do have to use “they” to refer to people on an almost daily basis

You have to. This is a problem for me. I won’t be forced to. The fact that you have to shows it’s compelled. “From now on, I compel you to talk to me in a certain way”. No thanks.

It’s such bullshit western privilege.

The thing that would twist my nips here is your friend giving you such a hard time about it when you’re trying.

They (don’t say she) are (is) probably defensive as this is a new world for them to an extent and they are probably wanting to get the “ground rules” laid down hard and fast so folk can get used quick and it becomes normal for all asap.

Problem is not everyone is so quick to learn and especially if of the - say - 25 women you know, only one of them must have this amended pronoun, I get you.

Explain this to your friend, that you want to support them in their new world and they’re still your friend and you love them but you’re trying so enough with biting your head off.

@notbadconsidering

OMG, people do like a pointless bunfight.

Yes, yes, non-binary folks point a gun to my head on a daily basis hence why I have to use they.

Or did I use “have” but meant it as “I feel MORALLY COMPELLED to use it because it’s what feels right to me and the people I care about.” Oh yes that’s what I meant by have.

Again, nobody is actually forcing you to change your vocabulary. Some people are ASKING you to. And you are free to be kind and do it or you can say no and not do it, the only thing is people can react however they see fit to being referred to by you as something they don’t want to be referred to as. Nobody should ever be violent and threaten you for it but they are fully entitled to be upset, the same way you might be upset at them wanting to change your vocabulary.

Again pick your battles. Some of you are obviously willing to let go of friends because they would see using different words and wording as a chore, that’s fine, some of us like our friends more than that and are willing to make the effort.

Pick the hill you want to die on and do so.

Don’t try and use what I say to confirm your own beliefs or stance, you already know you don’t want to use “they” to refer to anyone. That’s fine. Why do YOU care if I do? What happens to me and what I do should not shape how you perceive things or what you decide to do?

Do whatever aligns with your beliefs/moral compass, if you read my posts you will see that I haven’t asked anything of you (or anybody else on that thread), do whatever makes you happy (I am perfectly happy with my own choices and word/pronouns use) no need to justify it to me or anybody else.

If you think non-binary individuals are privileged I would suggest you check what being privileged mean. (Not sure how this thread would even be a good example as to how non-binary folks are privileged when 80% of the comments are about how people would stop be-friending them and would purposefully call them she/he). You can think whatever you want of people who identify as non-binary but saying they are privileged is a bit tone deaf.

Again, last time I checked you still had FULL freedom of using “she/her” to refer to anyone non-binary or anyone for that matter. Use it if that’s what you want.

Doesn’t change the fact that I manage just fine while OP’s whose first language, I assume is English, seem to struggle with it. Does it ?

They are struggling with the appropriateness of lying to placate a friend.

Obviously you have no ethical conflict.

@TehBewilderness

I don't, no.

Linning, all those people in your circle are either men or women. They might not like that fact, but you choosing to lie about isn’t going to change their reality. Your pretence is quite damaging. What right do they have to insist everyone distorts reality on their behalf? You do you. Pretend that sex isn’t real. It’s a game of make believe. They can still live exactly the same lives, dress the same, use whatever names they please. Insisting people use different words to refer to them is just plain bizarre. Me using ‘they’ doesn’t mean I have forgotten they are female. Why must I pretend I can’t tell? It pisses me off that they are so regressive and want everyone to be complicit while they pretend to eschew gender while cementing the binary. So unthinking.

Please don’t @ me. I don’t like it, and I would ask you to respect how I wish to be referred. If I was narcissistic I would make you refer to me if a more specific way, but I’m not, so I won’t.

The friend is compelling the OP by being upset with her. It’s emotional blackmail.

It’s not tone deaf to call it privilege. I read this week that 280,000 women and girls in Somalia will be subject to FGM this year alone. Not a single one of them will have the privilege of saying:

“Oh actually, I’m like, non-binary now? So my genitals are neither male OR female, so you can’t mutilate me right now. If I decide I do identify as female, I’ll let you know, but until then, please tell the other men that they should call me ‘they’ when your discussing me. Thanks.”

Imagine telling them there are women and girls in the West who get upset with their friends for saying “she”. It stinks of privilege to me.

Surely you don't use she and her much, or their choice of they, when talking to the friend. I use you when talking to my friend, when would I need to use she/her/they?

The @ symbol sends an email message to the person. zit is rude to do that when the person is on the thread reading your argument in favor of dishonesty.

"Be kind, be kind"

It's not very kind to boss people about and fall out with them for not doing as you say. Non-binary is the new "I'm not like other girls" which reduces women to a set of unfavourable stereotypes.

www.google.com/amp/s/4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/amp/

NotBadConsidering
You've hit the nail on the head there. Only the very privileged are busy getting offended because someone absent mindedly uses the wrong pronouns.
It's a very Western conceit.
I'll use preferred pronouns if someone asks me but tbh I try avoid the pronouny crowd. I've never met one who wasn't a drama llama.

@Blackdoggotmytonguestill

You realize words are just that... words, right? ''She/her'' were just the one we (well English speakers) decided should refer to ''women", by your own words, a word doesn't change biology so how does using ''they'' would be denying their biology if according to you there is no denying biology?

Again, use whatever pronouns you want to refer to others, I will do the same, and whatever you or anybody thinks of it means very little to me the same way I assume what I do or think mean fairly little to you.

Not sure why everyone is making it their quest to try and make me ''see the light'' and stop doing something I want to do while complaining about people forcing them to do something they don't want to do. Irony much?

Again, what people think of me, my friends, my word usage, my life, the identity of my friends or even just non-binary individuals in general etc... is absolutely and utterly irrelevant and hold absolutely zero value to me. It won't change my mind, let alone change what I do.

I will continue to do what feels right for me according to my own moral compass/feelings and life experience and I urge others to do the same. Don't feel forced to use pronouns you don't want to use (as long as you accept you might lose friends over it, and vice versa I suppose) and don't try and force me to go your way just because you feel it's best. Do what makes YOU happy, and let me do the same. Nobody is forcing you to ''pretend'', you don't want to call someone ''they'' don't, just don't ask me to pretend to be someone who don't give a shit about my friends by using pronouns they don't want used, just because you want me to and feel I should, BE CONSISTENT. You don't want to be controlled don't try and control others.

I haven't asked anything of you, why do you think I should speak on behalf of non-binary people? If you have a grief with them, take it with them.

I will follow your expression and I will ''do me'' (which I have consistently been doing btw, thank you), what about ''you do you'' too and stop being bothered by what other people (me) do?

It must be rough, continuously stressing about what people do with their lives. Since the beginning I have defended your right to use the vocabulary you want, in fact I have encouraged people like you to, is it so hard to let me do the same, without wanting to ''censor'' me or is it a thing only non-binary folks do?

Get her a name badge saying 'They' are a pain.

Put her in your phone as 'They' need to get a grip.

Yes, I said “no need for pronouns” in those two specific example. Of course if in real life you would spend 20 minutes discussing your friend when hanging out with her it’s different, that wasn’t the point of my post though and my examples were based on my friendship group were none of us would actually take a call when hanging with a friend and have a proper catch up with our mum (again my mum doesn’t most of my friends so I can’t see her being merely interested in their life to the point I would feel the need to discuss them with her other than by confirming I am with them, if relevant), you obviously are part of a different friendship group with different dynamics and acceptable social norms (again I don’t think you can compare wives to a spouse or kid though using a word you know upset them repeatedly in front of them would still be a dick move).

I don't think anyone cares about what your mother knows about your friends or your tendency to answer or ignore calls in front of those friends. The point is that it isn't rude to take about people in front of those people. It goes on all the time, in hundreds of situations, the vast majority of which are not rude. If someone asked my wife about her day and I cut in and spoke for her then that would be rude, but not because I was talking about her. The interrupting and implying she couldn't speak for herself would be rude.

But those situations would all sound ridiculous with repeated use of names and no pronouns.

Whatever the solution is, it definitely isn't the complete avoidance of pronouns.

Linning

We are discussing the OP. You’re telling the OP she is in the wrong. Others are telling you the OP should not have to comply and picking apart your reasons. No one is making it about you.

Except you.

@NotBadConsidering

Please don’t @ me. I don’t like it, and I would ask you to respect how I wish to be referred. If I was narcissistic I would make you refer to me if a more specific way, but I’m not, so I won’t.

The friend is compelling the OP by being upset with her. It’s emotional blackmail.

It’s not tone deaf to call it privilege. I read this week that 280,000 women and girls in Somalia will be subject to FGM this year alone. Not a single one of them will have the privilege of saying:

“Oh actually, I’m like, non-binary now? So my genitals are neither male OR female, so you can’t mutilate me right now. If I decide I do identify as female, I’ll let you know, but until then, please tell the other men that they should call me ‘they’ when your discussing me. Thanks.”

Imagine telling them there are women and girls in the West who get upset with their friends for saying “she”. It stinks of privilege to me.

Forgot one could quote you ( better? )

And imagine telling them that some women in the west feel censored and oppressed because they are requested to use an extra word to refer to someone. ''No, they are not legally forced to, no and yes they could totally not use the requested pronouns and stick to the original ones, I know right? Oppression."

You are right, people in Somalia and Africa would laugh at the idea that women see inclusivity as a form of oppression and censorship and I agree that most debate are indeed very privileged. But looks like western countries like to be offended and feel oppressed over ''nothing'' on both sides, hey!

You can be as ''narcissistic'' as you want by picking the pronoun or whatever you see fit to refer to yourself as, I can think poorly of you and disagree with you and think you are the biggest narcissist and STILL give you basic respect by referring to you in the way that is correct to you. I can even use my own technique and avoid pronouns altogether if I hate the way you want to be referred to as. AGAIN the magic of languages, plenty of ways to say the same thing, woot!