Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

Can’t be doing with attention seekers. Or forced speech so I’d be distancing myself.

@NotBadConsidering

Linning

We are discussing the OP. You’re telling the OP she is in the wrong. Others are telling you the OP should not have to comply and picking apart your reasons. No one is making it about you.

Except you.

I suggest you read the answers again then, not only have people asked me direct questions or made comments that had nothing to do with the OP but I have said REPEATEDLY OP (and anyone else for that matter), don't HAVE TO comply if they don't want to, nobody is forcing her, she is entitled to continue to use her/she if she insist but that I understand why her friend is upset and that she should indeed reconsider her friendship if she thinks using ''they'' is too hard and it ends up being a deal-breaker/continuously hurting her friends feeling.

Do you disagree with any of that?

Because according to your answer we both agree OP shouldn't HAVE to comply but that if that's something that is important to her friend she either have to compromise or acknowledge it won't work out.

So again, we both agree she doesn't have to comply, do we agree it's likely the friendship won't work though if that's something they are both set in stone on though? Whether it's for the best or not (and I feel it might) is for OP to decide.

I can even use my own technique and avoid pronouns altogether if I hate the way you want to be referred to as. AGAIN the magic of languages, plenty of ways to say the same thing, woot!

So you will happily twist yourself in knots to write and talk at the whims of a narcissist? You’re admitting you need to butcher language to avoid upsetting people you don’t like. I personally wouldn’t. The only reason I have to do it at all is because of moderation policies .

I agree that the OP shouldn’t have to do anything and can walk away if she wants to.

But you said the OP was being unreasonable, that it wasn’t hard, she was a bad friend, you deigned to give autistic people a “pass”, couldn’t understand why the OP was “uncomfortable”, tried to get the OP to feel guilty then tried to “educate” the OP with some cringeworthy video.

So I would say it’s pretty fair that people have addressed you directly about your posts.

The mental stress of trying to learn a specific rule of grammar just for this one person would just make me avoid them.

@NotBadConsidering

I can even use my own technique and avoid pronouns altogether if I hate the way you want to be referred to as. AGAIN the magic of languages, plenty of ways to say the same thing, woot!

So you will happily twist yourself in knots to write and talk at the whims of a narcissist? You’re admitting you need to butcher language to avoid upsetting people you don’t like. I personally wouldn’t. The only reason I have to do it at all is because of moderation policies .

I agree that the OP shouldn’t have to do anything and can walk away if she wants to.

But you said the OP was being unreasonable, that it wasn’t hard, she was a bad friend, you deigned to give autistic people a “pass”, couldn’t understand why the OP was “uncomfortable”, tried to get the OP to feel guilty then tried to “educate” the OP with some cringeworthy video.

So I would say it’s pretty fair that people have addressed you directly about your posts.

Again, what you see as a chore and '' twisting yourself in knots'' is something that I do at no cost to me, it doesn't bother me, it isn't a chore and it isn't me twisting myself in knots. It takes the absolute same amount of time mentally and physically as to refer to them with the usual pronouns, it really isn't the big of a deal to me.

I do stand by the fact that she is being unreasonable and a bad friend. She knows it's important to her friend, she can be a good friend and make a genuine effort or she can do the right thing and step-away from the friendship altogether, trying to maintain a friendship while purposefully hurting the friends feelings despite repeatedly being asked not to is not being a very good or caring friends (irrelevant as to what is hurting the person feeling) again, had OP said '' AIBU for wanting to walk away from a friendship because my friend wants to be referred as ''they'' but I don't want to?" I would have said no, I would have found it shallow but there is nothing wrong with walking away from a friendship when someone request something you aren't willing to give, there is something wrong with pretending it's not an issue and that she really wants to do it but then not put in the effort. Again, I do understand why it's hard or even impossible for Autistic folks so I can't imagine any of my friends being offended by someone who happens to be autistic using ''she/her'' to refer to them BUT I genuinely do not see how it's hard, from a technical level, to use the pronoun requested, when again, plenty of people manage to learn full languages, included small adjustments like that, from scratch, as a foreign language. Saying I ''can't mentally accept to do it'' is very different to '' I can't technically do it''. I suggested a video made by non-binary individuals, because it was relevant to the topic at hand, I was gracious enough to suggest she watch and form her own opinion, I did NOT try to educate her as I am not non-binary and therefore my place isn't in educating her on a subject that isn't mine to educate her on, whether she finds it useful or not is for her to decide, I didn't ask her to do anything she didn't feel comfortable doing .

Now you acknowledge people did in fact address me directly? It's fair they have, because I posted, it's also fair for me to say I have shared my stance and people are free to agree or disagree with it and that whether they do or don't it will not change my mind so if anyone writing back to me was doing so in hope of changing my mind, it would be pointless. What I don't understand is people replying to my post to repeat themselves.

I have consistently replied in the same manner: " do what you want to do, I will do the same. (Use they, or don't.)''

Surely that's what most people say on this thread to people like me who are in ''favor" (or well not ''against'') using ''they'', yet people preach for non-binary folks to ''live and let live'' and somehow people don't seem to be able to let other folks do the same. I have not even implied anyone should be forced to use pronouns they don't want to use, I have been in full support of people doing whatever the heck they want, so my lack of understanding stems from seeing a bunch of people feeling the need to address my post to tell me " Well I wouldn't use ''they''/ well I would hate to feel like XYZ/ Well I.... " as if I am both supposed to care and as if it has any kind of relevancy to the topic at hand. I don't care what individual people do/don't do/want to do/don't want to do/hate/don't hate/feel about the general topic of non-binary or the use of ''they''.

The OP posted a SPECIFIC thread about a SPECIFIC situation with SPECIFIC details, I have answered SPECIFICALLY TO HER and HER situation about how I perceived HER situation, because the OP REQUESTED opinions about HER SPECIFIC SITUATION. I did NOT ask, NOR requested for people to share with ME their opinion about non-binary and the common use of ''they''. When I answered the topic, my initial answer wasn't about me at all, and was solely about the situation of the OP, yet posters felt the need to respond to ME (vs the OP) to tell me about how they disagree with ''they'' and ''non-binary'' when those are general topics, none really addressed any of the things you mentioned could have sparked an answer to my post, instead it was mostly people volunteering their opinion on ''non-binary'' and the use of ''they'' which doesn't really matter to me and probably isn't that helpful to the OP either.

It's fair people have addressed me but it's fair if I tell them I would rather they didn't and focused in addressing the OP (who is the one who is requesting help and advice here, not me)

You are right, people in Somalia and Africa

Erm, Somalia is in Africa..misses the point

And how do you know how those women would feel? Have you asked them? Or are you just assuming?

Stop it.

Linning, you're not winning

BUT I genuinely do not see how it's hard, from a technical level, to use the pronoun requested, when again, plenty of people manage to learn full languages, included small adjustments like that, from scratch, as a foreign language.

You speak 5 languages, and you don't understand why unlearning a grammar rule you've been taught since you first learned to speak is hard?

People I work with who's first language doesn't really use pronouns find it hard to use the right one all the time. People who's first language heavily use pronouns often forget and use the wrong ones still because they're concentrating on other things. And English is a relatively easy one - how about the languages where so many words are modified based on the sex of the speaker? Spanish speakers must have it even worse than English speakers.

Have you ever played any of those kids (or drinking) games where you have to replace certain words with other words (like fizzbuzz, or sausage) - they're fun, because it's hard to use the wrong word.

@namechangeindiana

Another example was when my mum phoned me and I explained that I was with my friend and said 'she'

Those are stange examples. Surely of you are in the company of your friend and on phone to your mum, you would refer to your friend by their name. Using she/ he when referring to someone in theor actual company was always considered very rude. My mum used to say " who's she? The cats mother?". In other words use the person's name and you can't go wrong

I couldn't pander to this nonsense and level of self obsession

My thought exactly. Navel gazing at its finest.

To me it's like this, a friend of 24 years called Emma deciders she wants to be called Sarah. Everyone would struggle to remember with slips of the tongue being inevitable.

YANBU for thinking it’s strange. The silent majority is with you

Indeed. Sad that so many want to appear woke so they'll stay silent.

If she gets arsey with you, I would step away, permanently. You wouldn't be advised to put up with it or pander to it from a husband or boyfriend so don't put up with it from a friend.

The thing is most people are just too damn busy living their own lives to give headspace to stuff like this, especially women.

Women are balancing jobs and families, they are caring for young children, or children with special needs, or elderly parents who can’t live independently anymore, they are working their bones off to make sure food is on the table and a roof is over their head, if people are going to get stroppy because people can’t give them headspace then fuck ‘em, they need to learn the world doesn’t revolve around them.

@ABlackRussian

You are right, people in Somalia and Africa

Erm, Somalia is in Africa..misses the point

And how do you know how those women would feel? Have you asked them? Or are you just assuming?

Stop it.

Duh.

I know that, that is why I said AND (the rest of) Africa, or is Somalia representative of ALL Africa?

You could ask that question to the main person who brought up that argument and Somalia into the discussion by making assumption about how they would feel, but to answer your question (while I don't owe it to you too), I would say that while I can't speak for ALL African women and definitely not for Somali because I have no link to Somali, I do know what quite a few African women would and do think on the topic because I am half-African and half of my family was killed in a genocide. So I would like to think my vision of ''oppression'' (and the one of my relatives with whom such topics have been brought up) is a bit more broad than feeling oppressed by someone requesting I use a specific pronoun to refer to them.

Any other questions that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread and brings no value to it?

I am not trying to ''win'' anything (the fact that you think anyone can win on mumsnet or that this is a competition says more about you than me tbh). I am not even trying to convince anyone of anything. You should follow your own advice and ''stop'' and read the thread you will see, I am all for people not using ''they'' if they don't want to. But I guess you disagree with that? Or no, you just wanted to post something that added zero value to the OP or the discussion and make silly pun to entertain yourself my bad. Off in your hole back you go.

Anyway.

I have shared my point of view, people are free to agree or disagree with it (it's no skin off my back either way) so let's focus back on OP's specific situation and how she should handle it with her friend, by giving her advice and opinions tailored to her post/situation.

trying to maintain a friendship while purposefully hurting the friends feelings despite repeatedly being asked not to

It’s not being done purposefully FFS! The OP has been using the appropriate pronouns for sex since toddler age. Children under 5 know what pronouns to use. The OP can’t just undo that.

I would have found it shallow

500 posts show this isn’t a “shallow” issue at all. Again, you’re saying the OP is within their rights, but use a pejorative to describe their actions. You don’t approve, it’s clear.

instead it was mostly people volunteering their opinion on ''non-binary'' and the use of ''they'' which doesn't really matter to me and probably isn't that helpful to the OP either.

It does help actually, because the OP now knows many people also don’t like the expectations of using incorrect pronouns and the reasons why.

You’ve known them for a long time, but it sounds like they has become caught up in the astonishingly recent, and hopefully short-lived trend of pretending sex doesn’t exist and that we can all pretend we can’t see it in the hope that this will prevent sexism from existing.

I’d distance myself. It’s one thing for a teenager to believe this sort of woo, quite another for an adult. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear, but while they is insisting you do something that makes you uncomfortable and, from the sound of it, has a tantrum when you make an error (any decent person would be patient with the genuine errors of a longstanding friend) you’re better off out of it.

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

BUT I genuinely do not see how it's hard, from a technical level, to use the pronoun requested, when again, plenty of people manage to learn full languages, included small adjustments like that, from scratch, as a foreign language.

You speak 5 languages, and you don't understand why unlearning a grammar rule you've been taught since you first learned to speak is hard?

People I work with who's first language doesn't really use pronouns find it hard to use the right one all the time. People who's first language heavily use pronouns often forget and use the wrong ones still because they're concentrating on other things. And English is a relatively easy one - how about the languages where so many words are modified based on the sex of the speaker? Spanish speakers must have it even worse than English speakers.

Have you ever played any of those kids (or drinking) games where you have to replace certain words with other words (like fizzbuzz, or sausage) - they're fun, because it's hard to use the wrong word.

I didn't say I couldn't understand why one might struggle at first (I even admitted I initially struggled with it too in my initial comment), but if people (and plenty can and do, natives and non-native) manage to learn it despite it not being their first language or despite it not being natural, there is no reason why OP wouldn't be able to if she really put her mindset to it.

Learning a full new language is MUCH harder than learning a slight change in yours. I am almost never home so I only speak French on a sporadic level now, and French continue to evolve so it's not uncommon that I go home and see my younger brothers and friends/family use new expressions and words I have never heard before, including dubious grammar, and it takes a minute but in a few times of hearing it, it's usually processed and assymmilated.

The same way words that are masculine in french '' Le Frigo" (fridge) can be feminine in Spanish " La nevera'' and while it wasn't easy to unlearn the way I had learned grammar in French and my impulse to use the same rules in both language, I still did it because it was important to me to learn to use the appropriate language even if people would have understood me when using the wrong pronouns.

My point is, the problem isn't that it's hard if one is making a genuine intent to try, it didn't come across to me that OP was genuinely trying because she admits in her OP that ultimately she doesn't really want to as she is uncomfortable, which is perfectly fine but I believe if she genuinely wanted to learn to use they in a way that would satisfy her friend (again not that she has to), she wouldn't have half the problem she probably has. I was lazy about learning German, my german is not half as good as my Spanish, I could say it's because it's hard (it is) but it would still be much better if I had genuine motivation and put the same mindset I had to learn proper Spanish into learning German

(the same way one could condition themselves into learning weird invented words in games and understand and make up a meaning for them and understand in the same way they did official words and grammar).

They as a singular pronoun may be used sometimes for someone that you do know the sex of (good examples given above), but it is not to the exclusion of using he or she and is often when there is something “bigger” than the individual that you are talking about, eg you say “they’re great” when referring to Shakira because it is really the music rather than the person you are talking about. That doesn’t mean that in many more circumstances you wouldn’t use correctly sexed pronouns when talking about that person. Whether or not you might sometimes use they for an individual you are still being asked NEVER to use them in all the many times when you naturally would. It is of course fine and normal to try and accommodate a friends wishes, but this one is a difficult one to comply with because we don’t constantly self police our pronouns (which is a good thing) and the request requires us to do so if we want to comply well as we have to relearn normal speech/grammar rules for one specific person.

However, there are two wider points expanded on above. The first is the general increase in policing of language which acts to stop people speaking through fear of being judged for getting it wrong. The second is the debate on gender ideology as those concerned about the wider effects on society of the growth in that ideology may well not want to be complicit. It must be very difficult for people in that position who want to support their friend, and would normally do their best in this circumstance, but who do not want to support this particular ideology and further it’s grip on society.

(

It is not correct grammar, it does not work if you have common sense & know the English grammar. if they are "they", then they are plural..
Maybe we should invent a new pronoun... something neutral for this tiny minority of bullies. They can be whatever they want to be, but they are no more important than anyone else. Their rights should not erase everyone else's,

"it" would work better than "they",

This is daft. Unless "they" wear a badge saying "please call me they" then anyone who does no know them is going to refer them as he or she in conversation so "they" are always going to be offended by someone. It is natural and normal to distinguish by gender and use the normally appropriate pronoun, he, she, Mr, Mrs, Miss as denoted in the English language. In doing so people are not trying to cause offence so no need to be offended.
OP surely your longterm friend must realise that it will take sometime to adapt and remember the new denoted pronoun, just as if you said call me Bob from now on, I'm sure "they" might forget and revert to your original name sometimes.

It's all very "look at meeeee I'm so SPESHUL" isn't it?

Male, female. That's it. Don't be confusing sex and gender as they're not the same thing and a lot of people think gender is a load of made up stereotypes anyway.

@NotBadConsidering

trying to maintain a friendship while purposefully hurting the friends feelings despite repeatedly being asked not to

It’s not being done purposefully FFS! The OP has been using the appropriate pronouns for sex since toddler age. Children under 5 know what pronouns to use. The OP can’t just undo that.

I would have found it shallow

500 posts show this isn’t a “shallow” issue at all. Again, you’re saying the OP is within their rights, but use a pejorative to describe their actions. You don’t approve, it’s clear.

instead it was mostly people volunteering their opinion on ''non-binary'' and the use of ''they'' which doesn't really matter to me and probably isn't that helpful to the OP either.

It does help actually, because the OP now knows many people also don’t like the expectations of using incorrect pronouns and the reasons why.

She COULD undo it, it does and would takes work and it doesn't mean she has to or should , but saying she ''can't'' is the part where I don't agree, plenty of people obviously have managed to do it, so it's a possibility, whether everyone is willing to put in the work and energy into doing so is different though. (which is my point). I don't blame her for having learned to use grammar the proper way, we all have. It's fine. But the same way one can learn proper grammar, one could also very much learn wonky invented language and grammar if they put their mind to it (hence languages like Esperanto), again my statement doesn't include Autistic individuals who I obviously might struggle in learning concepts that steps away from the grammar and language rules they have learned to understand, which is totally fine. I don't blame people for not wanting to step away from what they know and have learned as proper grammar/language and can understand why OP is unwilling to change her vocabulary, but let's not pretend it's impossible when using ''they'' is fairly common nowadays, which shows plenty of people have managed to do just that.

Thinking something is ''shallow'' is an opinion. You probably think it's my right to use ''they'' yet might think non-binary people are ''crazy'' and/or ''deluded'' and/or ''cohersive'', you can have rights and opinions, my opinion of what the OP might chose to do about her friend doesn't stop me from acknowledging her rights, she doesn't need my ''approval'' to still be within her rights to do what she wants and feels right to her and use whatever pronouns she feels like.

I don't approve of people voting for Trump, I think they are completely devoid of common sense and usually incredibly stupid, doesn't mean people don't have the right to vote for Trump and support him. I don't have to approve of something to still acknowledge that people are entitled to feel and do differently. Most people don't approve of non-binary and use pejorative words to refer to them, doesn't stop them from being within their right to present as they see fit. I am not deluded into thinking OP would nor should care about my opinion, so why do you?

It's nice, you think OP might find it useful, she very well may, I just wish those comments were aimed at OP, rather than at me, again, she is the one who requested opinions not me.

Like others have pointed out, you really don't need to use 'she' or 'her' in this person's company - when talking to them directly you would say 'you', when referring to them in front of others or on the phone, you just use their name - I really don't see what's so hard?

I would never say 'she' or 'her' or 'he' or 'him' to refer to someone in front of someone anyway - it's just considered a bit rude when they are right there, isn't it?

If you inadvertently happen to use 'she' or 'her' in completely 3rd party conversations, well, your friend is not there to be offended. And you can try to make a mental note yourself to remember the next time.

I would give up on the friendship. Couldn't be arsed with this nonsense.

"It's nice, you think OP might find it useful, she very well may, I just wish those comments were aimed at OP, rather than at me, again, she is the one who requested opinions not me."

I personally suspect this thread has been constructed to elicit argumentation on this issue, rather than gain useful answers to the OP's original point.

What has resulted is unfortuately the increasing likelihood that the already vulnerable transgender population experience further marginalisation as people are advised to unfriend them.

I also note that we do not know the 'friend's' personal situation. They could be intersex and have been raised as one particular gender and come to discover that, medically/biologically, their situation is more complex than that and they would like other people to respect their newly-discovered situation.

when using ''they'' is fairly common nowadays, which shows plenty of people have managed to do just that

Outside of Twitter and your circle of friends, it really isn’t.

I am not deluded into thinking OP would nor should care about my opinion, so why do you?

Why would the OP ask for opinions if they didn’t care about them? Why are you posting then?

I just wish those comments were aimed at OP, rather than at me, again, she is the one who requested opinions not me

Posts aren’t aimed at you, your posts are engaged with to discuss what you’ve written, either directly with you or indirectly to build the debate to better inform the OP, because that’s generally how AIBU works. Maybe we should draw a line under this, but if people post rubbish, then it’s within the rights of other posters to address it.

OP, I would not go to the very long difficult process of unlearning the language I have spoken for 40 years to instead partake in Newspeak just to validate a friend. If they were a good friend I would feel able to tell them straight that I was still their friend but I wasn’t going to validate them, they need to sort themselves out, and if they were a good friend back they wouldn’t expect me to comply and turn on the tears. If they didn’t want that, so be it.

And if they were a true friend I would welcome them back when they apologise for trying to force me to comply with their fad.

But Linning you said replacing pronouns is easy then went on to misgender them. If this is when you’re concentrating and making a point, I’d posit it’s not easy when you’re talking about / to a friend of 24 years who’s pronouns up til yesterday where she / her.

Your post copied below with my bold:
YABU, use the pronouns they chose for themselves or stop using pronouns altogether when referring said friend, especially in her face. I promise you, it isn't that hard.

Example if you can't use ''they'' to refer to Sarah, next time you want to refer to Sarah in front of Sarah or introduce her say '' Hey Nathalie, long-time no see, let me introduce you to my friend Sarah, we have been friends since high school, Sarah this is Nathalie, a colleague'' (absolutely no need for pronouns anyway!)