Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

@Blackdoggotmytonguestill Very well said.
@whoissylvia Thank you.

I usually just use Spivak gender-neutral pronouns for everyone, rather than trying to remember different ones for different people (which is ridiculous; names are unique[ish] to that person; pronouns aren't).

They are much more intuitive because they're more similar to he and she etc, and people might not even notice you're using them. And they can't be confused with plural "they" (singular "they" does exist too, but isn't normally used that much).

e (he/she)
em (him/her)
eir (his/her)
eirs (his/hers)
emself (himself/herself)

I don't always use them, e.g. if I'm speaking to someone I know isn't used to the concept at all, but more often than not (at least verbally).

Just call them what they want to be called. It’s basic good manners. If they got married and changed their surname would it be such a big deal? No, you’d just get used to it like everything else. Saying they instead of he is hardly going to kill you, is it?

YANBU, I find it incredibly odd, they/them is a plural term according to the English language.

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

yanbu, I couldn't be doing with this.
Like another poster said, I am autistic and to me it doesn't work and is incorrect to how I have been taught.
I would socially distance myself from her.

I really don't get the pronoun thing as I cannot imagine many situations I would use someones pronoun infront of them..that seems weird.

They as a prnoun is kind of odd, as it implies the person is more than one.

I coldn't be around someone who kicked off about a slipup with pronouns tbh. If you have known someone named Jean for many years..and suddenly they decide they want to be called Kath, for example, you would still slip up occasioally and call them Jean.

We have a loose family friend I have known as X for many years then one day announced he is now transgender and we must all call him Y from now on. I forgot once and had my head snapped off by Y. Now I don't refer to person by name anymore. I keep it open eg oh hi how are you getting on in lockdown? Etc then after a while person flew into a rage because I did not refer to as Y. I am now giving person a wide birth and if they approach I smile and say I have to go I am in a hurry. This person is attention seeking and always has been an attention seeker. There behaviour gets more extreme if ignored.

YABU, use the pronouns they chose for themselves or stop using pronouns altogether when referring said friend, especially in her face. I promise you, it isn't that hard.

Example if you can't use ''they'' to refer to Sarah, next time you want to refer to Sarah in front of Sarah or introduce her say '' Hey Nathalie, long-time no see, let me introduce you to my friend Sarah, we have been friends since high school, Sarah this is Nathalie, a colleague'' (absolutely no need for pronouns anyway!)

''Yes mum, I am with Sarah right now." (Again no need for pronouns).

Talking about people in front of people shouldn't happen often anyway, so you might want to revisit that.

People who are autistic get a pass I say for obvious reasons but if you are not autistic or suffering from any other diagnosis that might impair your ability to do this, you are being very unreasonable and quite a bad friend.

Not sure why someone wanting to be referred to as something else than their original name/pronouns is making you ''very uncomfortable'', most people have nicknames or names that have nothing to do with their birth name due to not liking their actual name and I don't know anyone who feels uncomfortable by it. Wouldn't you feel very ''uncomfortable'' and upset if someone was continuously misusing your name or referring to you as ''they'' when you have repeatedly told them you do not want to be referred as such? If that would upset you why not feel understanding towards your friend as to why they feel upset you continuously mis-refer to them?

I suggest you watch this whole webseries (found it very informative as someone who is a she and initially had trouble with using they) but if you can't/don't want to watch the whole thing, definitely watch this episode, I think they do a brilliant job when it comes to explaining how it works and how not hard it is, though it might come across as impossible at first. (Obviously it's a comedy and for comic-relief purposes so not meant to be 100% serious nor realistic but the messages, issues and explanations this webseries bring to the forefront is definitely valuable, regardless of one own personal beliefs (or disbelief) and opinions of non-binary individuals).

Bmidreams

I couldn't pander to this nonsense and level of self obsession. It's my opinion. Don't bother arguing with it. I don't care what you think.

Agreed. If my female "friend" made an issue of me saying "she" instead of "they", then I really wouldn't want to talk to them at all. I would forget a lot. Then there would be bickering, etc.

"They" suggests more than one person. "She" suggests female.

I can't stand this shite.

Linning

''Yes mum, I am with Sarah right now." (Again no need for pronouns).

Unless Sarah is also offended by the word "mum" and thinks "parent" should be used

I wont be told by the Sarah's of this world that women aren't women and that men aren't men.

I don't think I would want a friend who is such hard work. What is more important to them - your friendship or how you refer to them? If the later then I would be quietly distancing myself. YANBU. It is ridiculous and total self obsession.

@Icanflyhigh

YANBU, I find it incredibly odd, they/them is a plural term according to the English language.

And "You" is a collective term not a singular term in English too. But I bet you refer to individuals as you don't you?

Much like how in modern usage we use they when we dont know gender

"DH, Jordan from the bank called today"

"Oh what did they say?"

"Yes mum, I am with Sarah right now." (Again no need for pronouns).

Unless the conversation keeps to the extremely simple level, it's going to sound ridiculous.

Yes, mum, I'm with Sarah now. Sarah says that Sarah is over her cold now. Sarah says not to worry about Sarah

@Huggybear16

Is Sarah telling you, you aren’t a woman when she says she would rather the word “they” is used to refer to their own person?

Good on you if you would rather limit the people you interact with, I personally don’t think it cost me anything to use the right pronouns and be kind and will continue to do so.

@BadLad

Why would you be having a full conversation about someone to someone else while this person is sitting next to you? It’s rude. You might as well pass them the phone or let them talk for themselves if it’s an active conversation. Or do the cordial thing of calling you mum back to catch up when not in the presence of somebody else?

@Linning

No, Sarah isn't saying that I'm not female, but she is trying to change the language I have been using for 35 years. Her = female, whether Sarah likes it or not.

Good on you if you would rather limit the people you interact with, I personally don’t think it cost me anything to use the right pronouns and be kind and will continue to do so.
But it's not the right pronouns, is it?

@huggybear16

Again, cutting people off on the basis of the way they want to be referred as or words they use to refer to themselves is your prerogative, language is an ever evolving thing, the correct way of speaking in 1789 is different to 1950 which is yet different to today, plenty of words you used or didn’t use in the 80’s you stopped using or started using now, because something wasn’t a thing before (using they as a single pronouns) doesn’t mean it can’t be.

Again, do whatever you see fit with your friendship group, I will continue to do the same by treating all of my friends with respect and using the correct pronouns which is at absolutely zero cost to me.

That's complete rubbish. If "mum" asked how Sarah was, it's not rude to answer. When I'm on the phone to my family and they ask about my wife nobody expects me to pass the phone back and forth between us every time she comes up in conversation.

How's Sarah?
Sarah's fine, but Sarah has been working hard, so Sarah's a little tired.

The only thing wrong with that is the lack of pronouns.

The idea that you can only use names and never pronouns in front of someone is ridiculous. I'm amazed anyone would post such nonsense.

I don't have children, but I assume that some people who do occasionally have to discuss their children's schoolwork and behaviour with the teachers in front of the the children. Certainly mine did when I got into trouble? Are you saying that neither parents nor teachers should ever use he she or whatever preferred pronoun because that would be rude, and instead they should always use the name, even if several times in the same sentence?

And by correct pronouns I mean correct pronouns to THEM which is what matters to me as I care more about my friendship that a debate over semantics and attachment to the correct grammar, which again, will likely be irrelevant by the time I die.

@BadLad

I assume you wouldn’t purposefully continuously offend your spouse by referring to him/her/them by a pronoun you know they don’t want to be referred to.

Again, I didn’t say “don’t use pronouns at all”, I said “ if you can’t help to talk about Sarah and can’t be arsed to do the kind thing of using the words they want used, at the very least try and avoid using pronouns.” Yes the conversation would be ridiculous that’s why it probably would be easier to make an effort and use the pronouns they want to be referred as to start with.

Oh I would def forget to use "they"

I'm in my 50s now and still think of my friends by their maiden name and they do the same with me.

No one gets offended. We are all quite gracious about it as we know no offence is intended.

They're effectively asking you to filter your own instinctive use of language in a way that doesn't reflect your own experience. That's a no from me. Use whatever words you want to describe yourself but a line has to be drawn when you start to compel others to modify their own expression. Your language is yours, it describes and illustrates your experiences, it doesn't belong to someone else.

If you're willing or able to participate in re-working your own language, cool, that's up to you. But nobody should be giving you a hard time, pressurising you or even expecting you to do it. No way.

Also this idea that forced pronouns are part of language evolution is so disingenuous. Language changes through common consensus and usage, not through people chucking fits and making people feel bad about using the language that describes their own experiences.

If you want people to respect your subjective adaptation of language, you need to respect their right to also say "no thanks".

If you are walking on eggshells you might be in an abusive relationship.

Also it's utterly self-indulgent wank. I can't imagine anything more ridiculous than trying to compel how other people might talk about you when you're not even there.

Pronouns are based on sex, that's why it's an issue for those who worship at the gender hut. For those who experience dysphoric distress I have some sympathy, but life is a constant stream of people misrepresenting or misunderstanding you, in all sorts of different ways. Referring to you in the wrong way, strangers not knowing who you are or how you live. Mr Mrs Ms. Making assumptions. There's no meaningful way to change that - so instead of forcing new language on people, why not just give less of a fuck and move on.

You are not defined by the language other people use to describe you.