Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

Misgendering is not possible if you don’t believe gender has a material reality though. I use pronouns based on sex, like literally everyone forever. If you believe gender is a pile of socially constructed horse shit used to dictate and control behaviours of both males and females, being asked to signal your belief in ‘gender’ by altering your speech to centre it instead of reality is offensive.
I find it hugely offensive to be asked to centre fiction instead of fact. In some very severe circumstances the treatment for this mental illness is the legal fiction of transition, and for those very few people I am willing to contort my own belief to ameliorate the delusions of their illness (at least until they request sex-based rights).
I have zero respect for the affirmation only treatment model. It is doing a disservice to thousands and turning an illness into a trend.
Awful.
No one I know who claims to be an enbie suffers from body dysmorphia. Threatening suicide over pronouns? Ridiculous. Feeling suicidal because you have such a serious mental illness that you believe your body is somehow wrong, a la anorexia/ body identity integrity disorder? Absolutely. Mental illness. But that needs therapy to help you come to terms with your body, not for everyone else to adjust their reality to fit your illness.
The emotional blackmail around this subject is something to behold. Suicide is the responsibility of the individual. Threats of suicide should be fast tracked to therapy. Treatment. Not affirmation.
Longitudinal studies show little difference in suicidal ideation pre and post transition. It’s not a magic pill, despite what those advocating for bilateral mastectomies and T would have you believe.

I’ve seen this bullshit creep up on places like LinkedIn where I see it as virtue signalling plain an simple, for eg “I was speaking with Sam Bloggs (they, them, theirs)”
Do I think, oh I must remember not to speak about Sam as though they’re a man/woman?
No. I think what pretentious time wasting bullshit.
No wonder our civilisation is straining under the weight of a pandemic, we’re too busy navel gazing and ego stroking to focus on real things like science,
Just ignore

Actually for a lot of teens, I think they DO just decide that they are trans. If the internet didn't exist, there wouldn't be thousands of teens deciding they were trans/non- binary, or whatever.
What we are seeing is social contagion on a huge scale.

It’s rude to refer to someone using a pronoun instead of their name in their presence. What language you use in private is surely up to you?

How on earth do you just "decide" to be trans?
You hear/see other people doing it, makes you think "I want to do that too?"
If most of my peers were say gay, does that mean I automatically think I want to be too?
Same with trans. I want to be trans as everyone else is?!
Just as ridiculous.
You either are or you aren't in either scenario.

@Blackdoggotmytonguestill

Misgendering is not possible if you don’t believe gender has a material reality though. I use pronouns based on sex, like literally everyone forever. If you believe gender is a pile of socially constructed horse shit used to dictate and control behaviours of both males and females, being asked to signal your belief in ‘gender’ by altering your speech to centre it instead of reality is offensive. I find it hugely offensive to be asked to centre fiction instead of fact. In some very severe circumstances the treatment for this mental illness is the legal fiction of transition, and for those very few people I am willing to contort my own belief to ameliorate the delusions of their illness (at least until they request sex-based rights). I have zero respect for the affirmation only treatment model. It is doing a disservice to thousands and turning an illness into a trend. Awful. No one I know who claims to be an enbie suffers from body dysmorphia. Threatening suicide over pronouns? Ridiculous. Feeling suicidal because you have such a serious mental illness that you believe your body is somehow wrong, a la anorexia/ body identity integrity disorder? Absolutely. Mental illness. But that needs therapy to help you come to terms with your body, not for everyone else to adjust their reality to fit your illness. The emotional blackmail around this subject is something to behold. Suicide is the responsibility of the individual. Threats of suicide should be fast tracked to therapy. Treatment. Not affirmation. Longitudinal studies show little difference in suicidal ideation pre and post transition. It’s not a magic pill, despite what those advocating for bilateral mastectomies and T would have you believe.

amen to all this. Couldn't have put it better.

If I go round saying I'm Jesus Christ and from now on, everyone has to call me Jesus Christ or you're not nice, people would think a) it's not true and b) I need psychiatric treatment. But if someone goes around saying they want to be 'they' everyone's supposed to comply without question and even laud it. You couldn't make it up. It's like proclaiming you're a bird and expecting to be showered with birdseed.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

How on earth do you just "decide" to be trans? You hear/see other people doing it, makes you think "I want to do that too?" If most of my peers were say gay, does that mean I automatically think I want to be too? Same with trans. I want to be trans as everyone else is?! Just as ridiculous. You either are or you aren't in either scenario.

These scenarios aren't comparable. You know whether you feel sexual entirely or mostly towards the same sex, the opposite sex, both sexes or no sexes.

How do you know if you feel like a girl or a boy? What does that mean, if it doesn't mean that you are (biologically) a girl or a boy? And how can a boy (a male) possibly know what it feels like to be a girl - not that there is a way of 'feeling like a girl'.

Not remotely comparable.

Feel sexual attraction, I mean.

@Prettybluepigeons

Actually for a lot of teens, I think they DO just decide that they are trans. If the internet didn't exist, there wouldn't be thousands of teens deciding they were trans/non- binary, or whatever. What we are seeing is social contagion on a huge scale.

I think what happens is some children present differently to stereotypes of their gender and so they misdiagnose themselves as trans. Like cyberchondria kind of thing. eg when you get a chest pain or weird lump you may google it and start believing you going to die. It is easy to see how a child who may feel anxious that tehy don't fit in may believe they must be trans because they a girl who likes football and isn';t comfortable with her body (puberty is a horrible time when it comes to feeling comfy in your own skin for most of us) or maybe she hates being a woman or has been abused in some way (sadly this is very common and you wpouldn't know if they didn't tell you in most cases).

I dont think the do it for Lols though. I do agree that many genuine mental illnesses do have an element of social contagion. Peopel who self injure by cutting for example, there i salways something deeper going on, but a vulnerable child may see their friend dealing with their problems by cutting, so they try it too. Doesn't mean the things they dealing with are fake, bit it does mean this thing spreads and presto- another genuine cutter with genuine emotional issues is born. :( with anorexia or bulimia (somehow BED is the ED that no one wants to emulate. Maybe because sufferers are either fat (no glamour or positive affirmation/attention there!) or if they aren't it is usually a secret)

@EarringsandLipstick

No, I don't think you're lying. I wasn't referring to you at all, but to Earrings' belief that if someone says something (eg that they are not a woman/man), then it is true.

I'm going to leave it after this Robot (in terms of replying to you) as I think you are either being deliberately obtuse or stirring like crazy.

You directly quoted my response about Sonichu/your experiences of linguistic difference in Scotland, then said the bit about my tendency to believe what someone says is true.

Now you're twisting it so it's really about a wider issue (someone not being a woman/man) that we haven't even spoken of.

I'm only talking about OP's friend's request to use certain pronouns to refer to her. I didn't in anyway discuss woman/man saying they are not, in the course of this thread.

Take care 👋

I think you're being rather disingenuous in saying that's a different subject. It's the same subject.

The 'well, if someone says this, I believe them' approach was amusingly familiar in this topic.

How do you know if you feel like a girl or a boy?

I dunno, I just know I do. Just like I know I feel straight.
I just am

How on earth do you just "decide" to be trans?
You hear/see other people doing it, makes you think "I want to do that too?" confused
If most of my peers were say gay, does that mean I automatically think I want to be too?
Same with trans. I want to be trans as everyone else is?
Just as ridiculous ☝️to many paragraphs to bold.
I truly believe these young people are misfits in society, including my DD. She has always been very aware she is different and socially awkward she has ASD.
I remember when the change happened about 3 years ago. I made a thread on it, she was mesmerised by LGBT at gay pride the costumes she's very much into cosplay anyway then she started researching non binary, watching teens on YouTube describe how they never fit in and now realise it is because they're different so must be non binary.
It really is a MH issue and needs to be treated like one.
Thankfully I'm not pandering but pushing her back in a positive way.

Just as an FYI to those posters snootily posting their wiki page and proclaiming that singular 'their' has been in usage since Shakespeare - do you even read the links you post?!

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

It typically occurs with an unspecified antecedent

In the early 21st century, use of singular they with known individuals emerged for people who do not identify as male or female

So yeah, I agree with "The thing about grammar rules is that they exist whether or not you agree with them". I just don't agree with those of you that are wrong!

You feel straight because you feel sexually attracted to the opposite sex. You have evidence right there.

How do you know it's not the case that you feel like a woman because you are a woman, i.e. female? Feeling like a woman means knowing you are a female. There could be more to it - you (not you specifically!) could feel very 'womanly' if you're dressed sexily, swooshing your long hair, ironing your male partner's shirts, and so on - you feel you are behaving in a way that strongly meets the expectations for women in our society. Top womaning.

If you don't believe we should have these expectations, feeling like a woman just means knowing you are an adult female. I literally am a women, I couldn't feel like anything else.

Such nonsense, some people have become very strange .

ASD girls are extremely vulnerable to this sort of belief system. It’s very beguiling to suddenly experience a sense of kinship from other people when you have felt isolated and different forever. Unmitigated attention and support, and people showering you with praise is very appealing. If you are lonely and unhappy, a new identity that centres you in a supportive community makes perfect sense.
It’s actually really horrifying that girls who are ‘different’ in some way have to latch on to ideologies like this to get the friendship and support they crave. No one is going to fawn over them for having ASD (or CP, or anything else that marks you as socially or physically different) but come out as non-binary or adopt a male name and attention is guaranteed.
It makes me feel nauseous. These poor girls.

@CarlottaValdez

I have a friend who is now “they”. I forget constantly and say he or him but never to his (their) face as that’s not normally how language works. I’m amazed you’ve managed to do it multiple times - where is she overhearing you talking about her so much?

Do you mean where are 'they' overhearing you talking about 'them' so much? (LOL btw!)

But I can't see how someone would know unless they have people you talk to about them tattle tailing back to them.

Easy solution - never mention them to anyone every again. Like ever. In any context. No matter what.

No risk of offence that way. :-)

@EmeraldShamrock

*How on earth do you just "decide" to be trans? You hear/see other people doing it, makes you think "I want to do that too?" confused If most of my peers were say gay, does that mean I automatically think I want to be too? Same with trans. I want to be trans as everyone else is?* Just as ridiculous ☝️to many paragraphs to bold. I truly believe these young people are misfits in society, including my DD. She has always been very aware she is different and socially awkward she has ASD. I remember when the change happened about 3 years ago. I made a thread on it, she was mesmerised by LGBT at gay pride the costumes she's very much into cosplay anyway then she started researching non binary, watching teens on YouTube describe how they never fit in and now realise it is because they're different so must be non binary. It really is a MH issue and needs to be treated like one. Thankfully I'm not pandering but pushing her back in a positive way.

yes. no one chooses to be mentally ill.

Good for you for helping your DD in a positive way.

Yes exactly blackdog

They is a pain in the ass.

Your friend is perfectly within their rights to insist on a certain pronoun, and you are perfectly at liberty to decide you can't be arsed with 'them' anymore. My daughter did an arts based degree with a few attention seekers like your friend on the course. I asked how she got on remembering their latest pronouns "I don't " she said "I just avoid them".

Your friend must be very charismatic, OP, because I know that if I were start demanding such stuff from my friends, I would end up without any friends. I'm not that special.

How fucking pretentious!

It would be bye bye friend. Couldn't be bothered with all the sensitivity and the worry and the slip ups. I shouldn't have to worry everytime I met up with a friend.