Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

I don’t think anyone would have a problem with using a new name for someone.

That’s a hundred miles away from being asked to talk about them as if they are no longer the sex they were yesterday.

Good for you, Sonichu. I, however, am firmly rooted in reality and feel uncomfortable when someone tries to distort it and insists on my compliance.

@Thisismytimetoshine

What does this mean?

Not sure I understand?

I mean, that it's usual in Irish speech patterns to use 'they' in reference to 3rd person singular situations, and not just (as the PP had said) when the person is unknown.

A: were you talking to Cormac at all?

B: I was, actually, they were saying ...

It's very usual.

In my real life, people simply try to comply with someone's wishes. Here it causes huge anger.

Except its not just 'being nice'. The implications are significantly more important and wideranging that just the ultra simplist 'being nice'.

@EmeraldShamrock

OP, with the greatest respect, it’s not about you. Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you This post is not far from the truth at all. My DD with gender confusion suffers with MH issues with suicidal thoughts. I don't know how to link from incognito where I searched there are hundreds of articles on the high level of suicide and self harm linked to those with gender dsymorphia. Bookmark

I have heard the suicide link with gender dysphoria too, so I believe it exists. And am sorry to hear your DD is struggling so much

I do think though, (much as GD sounds like hell on earth to live with for the person who has it) it is placing a burden on the OP for anyone to imply if her friend is suicidal that it is OP's fault in any way. I imagine the suicidal issues relating to GD go very deep, and a friend unintentionally getting your preferred pronouns wrong would not be a cause.

Definitely not the case in Ireland, 'they' for 3rd person singular often populates a conversation, outside the occasions you state.

It means it is common to use 'they' to refer to one person in Ireland, surely?

So why is calling someone by a new name so different? It's still asking you to change an engrained behaviour?

@FamilyOfAliens Sorry if you dislike my suggestion; it was meant sincerely. OP says they "keep forgetting". I have difficulty remembering names/faces so I sympathise if the OP also has memory issues. Personally, I wouldn't have difficulty with pronouns but I have genuine difficulty with names and something one of my friends calls "face-blindness".

But it's not a new name is it?

It's a pronoun you will only ever use when talking ABOUT them not with them.

We dont go up to friends and say "What are she up to? We say 'Whar are you up to?".

Its not comparable at all to a name. We dont write cards with "Get Well She" we say get well "Get Well Mary ".

So a friend wanted to be change their pronoun to they. So when do I actually get to use it?

Also to add my two bob to the irish thing, it's also common in my part of Scotland to refer to someone as "they" rather than "he/she", but I'm sure that's because I'm not "rooted in reality" rather than my own learned behaviour.

In my real life, people simply try to comply with someone's wishes.

Which people? And who is someone?

Just that it seems to be a one way street with preferred pronouns.

@EarringsandLipstick

RubbishRobot

Definitely not the case in Ireland, 'they' for 3rd person singular often populates a conversation, outside the occasions you state.

Well it doesn't in any other English-speaking country I'm aware of. And even in Ireland, you wouldn't use they to the exclusion of he and she, would you? So insisting everyone calls you they would still be forcing them to go against language convention.

So when do I actually get to use it?

as you said yourself - when you are speaking about them to another person/group, or in email correspondence etc

No, it's not very frequent.

I do have some ambivalence towards it myself, but back to OP: if a friend asked me to do so, I would.

"If you found a lost item belonging to an unknown person eg keys youd say "they lost their keys""

I would say "someone" lost their keys, unless I knew more than one person was on a walk and lost their keys.

If you would say "their keys", you're agreeing with @Covidkate.

Well it doesn't in any other English-speaking country I'm aware of. And even in Ireland, you wouldn't use they to the exclusion of he and she, would you? So insisting everyone calls you they would still be forcing them to go against language convention

Sonichu just said it's similar in Scotland too...

No, not used to the exclusion of he/she, of course.

If someone wanted to have different pronouns used to refer to them, though, I can't see that it's an issue.

[quote laudete]@FamilyOfAliens Sorry if you dislike my suggestion; it was meant sincerely. OP says they "keep forgetting". I have difficulty remembering names/faces so I sympathise if the OP also has memory issues. Personally, I wouldn't have difficulty with pronouns but I have genuine difficulty with names and something one of my friends calls "face-blindness".[/quote]
I don’t think the OP genuinely forgets and I expect you know that.

I expect she doesn’t see why she should have to deny what she can see with her own eyes, especially as her friend is being so up herself about it.

Sorry, “themself”

@namechangeindiana it seems like you are a good kind friend who is doing her best with the pronouns. YOU are showing empathy towards your friend. But that empathy needs to come from her direction towards you, too. Even if her issues with gender are linked to trauma, which is highly likely, you are not misgendering her on purpose.

I am a trauma survivor and sometimes people around me unthinkingly trigger me. It is MY responsibility to deal with my triggers. not theirs.

I live in Scotland, and no it isn't.

@NoMoreDickheads, I get the reasoning, but it's remembering who prefers which pronouns that does my head in.

These aren't people I see regularly, but our office is mostly hot desks so we get loads of different people rocking up, and people who are in the building for training or meetings will often pop in for advice on specific cases, so half the time I don't who the hell people are anyway.

Plus I'm a bit shit at remembering faces. I can fail to recognise someone just because they've got a different haircut, so I really struggle if someone presents themselves as belonging to the opposite sex from the one they presented as the last time I saw.

I'm always relieved if someone I'm not sure about is wearing their name badge, that way I can use their bloody name!

I was chatting about this earlier to a former colleague who's moved into the private sector (we're a charity) in a much more ... conventional ... part of the country (we're near Brighton). She says that none of this is an issue where she works and she can't recall having to even think about gender pronouns since she left!

So I use it to a friend.
"I sent a card to Mary, they are not well".

How does Mary know about the fact I use it?
It's a hullabaloo about nothing which is rarely used and if so unknown to the user.
I think it's more a statement from the person rather than anything else. Unless of course they ( !) assume they will be widely talked about in their absence.

RubbishRobot

Sonichu said it was, in her part of Scotland. I think it's fair to believe her?

If someone is a girl I would call her a she.If they’re a boy I would call him a he. You’re born one or the other.

"I live in Scotland, and no it isn't."

Well I do and where I am he/she and they/them are pretty interchangeable. No one would get as righteously indignant about is as posters on MN, but then MN was never exactly an accurate reflection of real life.

If a female person doesn't want to be referred to as 'she' any more, what does that actually mean? What is she telling you? What are you accepting as true, in not calling her 'she' any more but 'them' instead?

If someone is quite obviously female then yes I would find it difficult to avoid using a female pronoun when referring to them in conversation.

This friendship sounds like hard work and I wouldn't want to do hard work in what's supposed to be my leisure time.

Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns.

Go on, then---what are they?