Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

The colleague who made the complaint that led to the written warning is one of the world's biggest drama llamas.

No shit

""They", is a perfectly reasonable singular pronoun. If you're their friend, you'll make the effort to use it."

This. If your friend had decided to change their name from "Jane" to "Susan" I'm sure you'd at least try and make the effort but apparently on MN preferred pronouns are a hill worth dying on.

Never heard of this before, must live in a bubble. I do get what you mean though,speech is automatic and he/she flows naturally but youd have to stop and think to say they/ them so it requires a conscious effort to relearn what youve been doing for as long as you can talk and there are bound to be slip ups, your friend should cut you some slack as long as you arent forgetting on purpose.

If your friend had decided to change their name from "Jane" to "Susan" I'm sure you'd at least try and make the effort

Why are people so insistent that changing your name is the same as changing your pronoun?

You're changing a 24-year-old habit so I wouldn't be too worried if it takes a little time for you to establish a new routine of using your friend's new pronouns. (I've heard people quote 30 days to establish a new routine.)

Can you make some reminders - perhaps a Post-it note by the phone/front door, edit your cellphone address book to say "[friend's name] they/them", photo on the fridge with "they/them" written on it, etc? In a few weeks' time, it will be second nature. :)

MN is so weird on this. In my real life, people simply try to comply with someone's wishes. Here it causes huge anger.

I have a friend who prefers they/them. And since that's what she prefers, that's what I do. It's no skin off my nose.
HOWEVER, it makes me realise how much of our speech is instinctive. We don't think through the exact day to day words and phrases we use. So with the best will in the world, 'she' still slips out if I'm not concentrating. Because that's what my brain is used to,

Fortunately they get that, and don't get annoyed if people slip up. It sounds as though your friend needs to be a little more empathetic. Say to her (at a relaxed time rater than when you've just made that mistake) that you will always consciously use her preferred pronouns, but that sometimes, when you're distracted or speaking more quickly than you can think, you might slip up. But it's not out of any disrespect or lack of care for her.
If she can't accept that, then she's not returning the understanding that you're offering her, and I'd be tempted to pull back a bit.

Oh Sage

I never buy a new baby card that says IT'S A BOY or IT'S A GIRL on the front. IT'S A BABY won't cut it with me either. Clearly he's a boy or she's a girl. He or she is a living breathing creature not an IT.

'It's' here is referring to 'the baby'. Not the specific person who has been born (boy or girl).

Also, idiomatically, saying 'He's a boy' is regarded as incorrect, as it's essentially repeating the information (he/boy).

Little brush-up on grammatical rules, Sage, and you can happily buy the cards again!

...and I've just demonstrated how hard it is by referring to your friend as 'her' or 'she' four times in that post.

OP, with the greatest respect, it’s not about you. Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you
This post is not far from the truth at all. My DD with gender confusion suffers with MH issues with suicidal thoughts.
I don't know how to link from incognito where I searched there are hundreds of articles on the high level of suicide and self harm linked to those with gender dsymorphia.
Bookmark

Can you make some reminders - perhaps a Post-it note by the phone/front door, edit your cellphone address book to say "[friend's name] they/them", photo on the fridge with "they/them" written on it, etc?

This has to be a windup

24 years and you wouldn’t want to know why your previously rational friend was making hitherto unrequired linguistic demands?

Blackdog please re-read mu first paragraph, which you quoted!

As a friend, yes of course, I'd be interested. It's not my right to know, though 🤷🏻‍♀️

Good for them feeling comfortable to be fluid

"Why are people so insistent that changing your name is the same as changing your pronoun?"

Why are people on MN so insistent that it isn't?

I'd just try and fit in with their wishes to be honest. And if you do, they should be tolerant if you occasionally forget. Just as if someone wanted you to call them by a different name than their original one: I've known a few people who, for example, decided that they wanted to be called by their middle names. Can be hard to remember at first, but not really that big a deal IMO.

"They is plural. One person is not plural."

Read the thread. And maybe brush up on grammatical rules

We only use 'they' to refer to a single person when we don't know their sex, or if we're deliberately trying to obscure it - like you see on threads here sometimes when people think they'd get different responses if respondents knew they were talking about a man/woman. And when they do that, it sounds clunkingly and obviously wrong.

there are hundreds of articles on the high level of suicide and self harm linked to those with gender dsymorphia.

Any of them linking suicidal ideation with people not using their preferred pronouns?

It’s hard to say they/then when a woman is standing in front of you. Partly because it’s silly grammar and partly because it feels like an embarrassing denial of the reality of the situation.

Why are people on MN so insistent that it isn't?

So you don’t have an answer then?

The thing about grammar rules is that they exist whether or not you agree with them.

Much the same as biological sex then.

RubbishRobot

Definitely not the case in Ireland, 'they' for 3rd person singular often populates a conversation, outside the occasions you state.

[quote RiverCrossing]@Bmidreams Gosh you sound like a treat.

OP, with the greatest respect, it’s not about you. Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you.[/quote]
Oh dear god is there no end to the absolute shit people like you will make up?

PRONOUNS ARE LITERAL VIOLENCE!

YOU’RE LITERALLY KILLING PEOPLE WITH YOUR HORRIBLE BIGOTED WORDS!

You go and research, @RiverCrossing, about how all this crap about death-by-misgendering is just a heap of Trump-worthy fake news, part of the most misogynistic hate campaign currently running in the western world.

And every single person who buys into this shit is supporting and enabling misogyny and homophobia.

Well done you.

@CharlotteCollinsneeLucas

cannot believe the level of vitriol towards your friend on this thread

For the most part not towards the friend, but towards the controlling of speech and belief.

...traumatised...

I for one would be helping my friend find proper support and therapy rather than encouraging a misguided belief that new language will keep her safe. Surely that's more important?

In any case, given the reaction of this friend, I think trauma is unlikely as a reason.

Trauma can present in many different ways though eg narcissistic traits. or identity issues. Unless you knew someone was a trauma survivor because they told you, you wouldn't have any idea. We don't wear signs on our heads!

Women/men who think everyone except them happily conforms to gender stereotypes, don't have gender dysphoria.

@EarringsandLipstick

RubbishRobot

Definitely not the case in Ireland, 'they' for 3rd person singular often populates a conversation, outside the occasions you state.

What does this mean?

"Why are people on MN so insistent that it isn't?

So you don’t have an answer then?"

No, because frankly I don't see the difference. If a friend of mine decides that they want to be known as either a different name or a different pronoun I will at least try and make the effort to remember to do so rather than wringing my hands about it and being "uncomfortable" about it on the internet.