Friend wants to be known as 'they'

[namechangeindiana]

I know there's a lot of discussion about this going on at the moment, but I read the threads and don't understand a lot of the terminology. I haven't done a huge amount of reading about it, but I know that I feel uncomfortable with it and don't really 'get' it.

I keep forgetting and calling my friend 'she' or 'her'. This then ends in a minor heated discussion and me trying to defend the fact that it takes time for me to change the language I am used to using. I try, I really do. We have been friends for 24 years.

Has 'they/them' always been a thing? Am I completely awful for thinking it's strange and not being entirely comfortable with it?

Sorry if I sound naive or am posting something that has been done a million times. I've not thought about it much until now. Willing to learn and hear other people's views...

Preparing to be flamed...

'They' has been used as a singular pronoun for hundreds of years. That's not an issue. Grammar and language change - keep up.

@DisobedientHamster

They is plural. One person is not plural.

Read the thread. And maybe brush up on grammatical rules

It's the individual's prerogative to choose what pronouns they'd prefer. It's not exactly a new thing.

No its not. Its policing everyone else.

@Colom

They have a non-traditional relationship anyway in the sense that they also have a boyfriend.

Although hang on do you mean "they" as a couple or "they" as in one of the people in the relationship? See this kind of proves the point...it's just unworkable!

They as a couple. It was ok but I didnt realise until I was at a party at their (plural) house and at different points saw them both kissing this guy. Its not a relationship set up I would want (plus I seem to struggle keeping 1 boyfriend let alone a spouse and a boyfriend ) but they are all happy and imo that's what matters.

I cannot believe the level of vitriol towards your friend on this thread. Well actually I can, Mumsnet is really backward regarding gender politics. Respect your friend’s wishes, otherwise you are no friend to them at all.

Imagine for example that they have been sexually assault and are so traumatised that they want to deny their gender as a result, as these things are generally things that happen to women. Would you really want to compound their trauma by not going along with their wishes?

This is not about you, it’s about your friend. Try to have a bit of empathy.

[quote EarringsandLipstick]@DisobedientHamster

They is plural. One person is not plural.

Read the thread. And maybe brush up on grammatical rules [/quote]
Don't be so rude, Earrings. We've all read the thread, we just don't agree with you. That's still allowed. For now...

[quote EarringsandLipstick]@DisobedientHamster

They is plural. One person is not plural.

Read the thread. And maybe brush up on grammatical rules [/quote]
Read it. This person would be called ex-friend.

OP, this article might help to explain why you find it uncomfortable:
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/
It talks mostly about saying “her” when you are seeing a “him”, but the principles apply to when you are seeing “her” and being asked to think or say “they”.

This is challenging for most people, and as previous posters have said, particularly challenging for people with Autism.

[quote RiverCrossing]@Bmidreams Gosh you sound like a treat.

OP, with the greatest respect, it’s not about you. Research the links between suicide rates and use of preferred names/pronouns. If you care about your friend then you’ll start remembering what they have asked of you.[/quote]
Please could you post some, because all the research that I've done shows no links between not using a preferred pronoun and suicide rates.

@laidbacklife - to update your knowledge, look at public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/#

'Since forms may exist in speech long before they’re written down, it’s likely that singular they was common even before the late fourteenth century. That makes an old form even older.
In the eighteenth century, grammarians began warning that singular they was an error because a plural pronoun can’t take a singular antecedent. They clearly forgot that singular you was a plural pronoun that had become singular as well. You functioned as a polite singular for centuries, but in the seventeenth century singular you replaced thou, thee, and thy, except for some dialect use.'

People are very quick to condemn change without doing the slightest bit of research!! 😂

Red

No its not. Its policing everyone else

How so?

This is a person's request. It is not particularly going to cause difficulty, in the rare instances where the changed pronoun needs to be used.

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the wider arguments posters are making.

It just doesn't have to be so polarised, hurtful and divisive.

"They", is a perfectly reasonable singular pronoun. If you're their friend, you'll make the effort to use it.

When your told to "research", you can be sure you're hearing bollocks.

[quote tenlittlecygnets]@laidbacklife - to update your knowledge, look at public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/#

'Since forms may exist in speech long before they’re written down, it’s likely that singular they was common even before the late fourteenth century. That makes an old form even older.
In the eighteenth century, grammarians began warning that singular they was an error because a plural pronoun can’t take a singular antecedent. They clearly forgot that singular you was a plural pronoun that had become singular as well. You functioned as a polite singular for centuries, but in the seventeenth century singular you replaced thou, thee, and thy, except for some dialect use.'

People are very quick to condemn change without doing the slightest bit of research!! 😂[/quote]
It's not a universal change, that's the bloody point.

In reality we never have conversations with friends that involve the use of she or he. We call them you or their name. So it isn't really relevant unless you are talking about them in their absence. I know a few people who've asked for it, but how does that work? How would they know if I used she or he?

I find the whole thing laughable and egotistical.

@Thisismytimetoshine

I'm not being rude! 😂 considering they nasty posts directed at me!

The poster stated something incorrectly about grammar. That had been comprehensively explained on the thread.

I suggested she read it. Hardly rude

You, on the other hand,🤨

The issue with this is that your friend is effectively saying to you ‘I have changed in this particular way, you don’t know me any more. You now need to call me by my new name’.
You don’t have to. It depends if the friendship can outlast the change.
On of my friends had a very dramatic religious conversion. It’s not dissimilar.

We've all read the thread, we just don't agree with you.

The thing about grammar rules is that they exist whether or not you agree with them.

@FamilyOfAliens, it would appear not!

The colleague who made the complaint that led to the written warning is one of the world's biggest drama llamas.

cannot believe the level of vitriol towards your friend on this thread

For the most part not towards the friend, but towards the controlling of speech and belief.

...traumatised...

I for one would be helping my friend find proper support and therapy rather than encouraging a misguided belief that new language will keep her safe. Surely that's more important?

In any case, given the reaction of this friend, I think trauma is unlikely as a reason.

@laidbacklife

YANBU. Your friend is being unreasonable expecting everyone to conform to her bastardisation of the English language. We all know how to use the plural pronoun ‘they’ and it is not for 3rd person singular. Suggest you tell her to stop whinging and get a life. Or just focus on your friends who don’t spout this kind of clap trap.

This.

Hamster

Read it. This person would be called ex-friend.

Ok your choice.

Still doesn't make your understanding of grammar correct.

This might help you:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

I would struggle to refer to any singular person as "they".
(even if he or she had a multiple personality disorder)
Maybe it's my inner grammar nazi.

I never buy a new baby card that says IT'S A BOY or IT'S A GIRL on the front. IT'S A BABY won't cut it with me either. Clearly he's a boy or she's a girl. He or she is a living breathing creature not an IT.

An adult is not a they. You wouldn't say it's a they.

Perhaps it's time for a new pronoun - how about ti (short for transgender individual) and we don't need to bother about whether he or she was born male or female and what he or she identifies as now. Otherwise shehe or heshe.

@SadSisters

We may not adhere to socially constructed gender stereotypes but we are all binary. Male or female.

Even if you refute the concept of gender entirely, this is not accurate. Intersex people exist. They are a small minority, but they are proof that humans are not all located within a binary sex model.

Not true. All intersex people still come under male or female genetically. The vast majority also object being used as justification for non binary arguments. Sex is not the same as gender.

@EarringsandLipstick

Why do they want to change their pronouns? Are they transitioning?

Why does it matter? I mean, I understand if they friends, they could have this conversation, if OP's friend wishes.

But otherwise, it's not necessary to know. I've only rarely been in the position of someone asking for they/ze/zim etc to be used (actually only when I've been in the States with work or working online with the people in question). I just followed their request. It is a really rare situation in any case, as you don't tend to spend much time talking about any individual in the 3rd person.

24 years and you wouldn’t want to know why your previously rational friend was making hitherto unrequired linguistic demands?