To think some men just can’t handle family life

[Dylaninthemovies1]

Over the past few years I’ve noticed quite a few friends and aquaintainces with young children split up with their husband/partner.

In nearly all scenarios the woman is literally left holding the baby. The man will only see the child(ren) when it suits them (once a week), keep changing the day they take the child, expect the mother to do all the parenting, avoid paying maintenance and try their best to make the mother’s life difficult.

I’ve noticed all the men seemed to have been very crap at being a dad even when they were with the mum; she’s left doing most of the childcare and housework even when working outside of the home too.

Am not saying all men are the same. But it just seems that so many men can’t handle family life

@B1rdbra1n

"I think women are wising up....aren't they?
Or are people just getting locked in the same old dysfunctional cycles in the same numbers?"

I'm not sure that women are wising up. I'm in my 50s and whenever the next generation introduce their boyfriends I can spot the rogues a mile off. I just cross my fingers and hope that they'll see it too.

We have low standards expected of men
They realise this
They then exploit this

They are entirely capable of playing at dollies, running around the park, getting up 6 times a night to feed a screaming child but society has it that it's natural for a mother to do it. It's not. It's a social construction to make men's lives easier.

[quote Flamemenot]@theprincessmittens

I agree that men should be more upfront but I'd also say that if you want children and your partner says they are undecided then getting married is probably not the best decision for either of you.

Sad (but unsurprised) to hear about all the bingoing you were subjected to. I'll never understand the arrogance that leads some people to involve themselves in the reproductive choices of others.[/quote]
This. Although I do think for some men they really are undecided, particularly if they marry somewhat young. I was married to such a man, when I was 22 and he was 24. Difference is that I didn't hang around and so many of my friends (I'm nearly 50) did, we talked and were open and we divorced when I was 30. We were incompatible. He also got a vasectomy. I had a number of male friends who did because they seriously did not want children and instead of being a jerk and leaving contraception to the female, they had the snip and used condoms every time (excepting I have two female friends who had also been sterilised as they never wanted children).

They took responsibility for their decision because they weren't jerks.

It takes a lot to admit you don't want children because there is still a lot of pressure on people to have them. They get called 'selfish' when honestly they're mature decision not to have kids is quite the opposite.

There's also still a lot of bullshit around 'love conquers all' and belief that you'll change someone's mind or change them, which is actually quite patronising, and this goes on both sides, with women clinging onto men with whom they know they are incompatible and some men who actually are very selfish and future fake them.

You do see it a lot on here, too, the partner doesn't want kids or doesn't want more kids, but 'doesn't like' condoms or doesn't want to have a vasectomy or tries to coerce unwanted termination. In those situations, I always feel, you need to ditch someone like this because fundamentally they don't respect you or themselves because they don't take responsibility for their decision and choices and who wants to be with someone who is so immature? Love is respect and that means because honest and communicating openly. As my ex said, 'I don't want them and you do. I cannot enforce that decision on you as it's not love, and you can't on me because it's not love. So we need to go our separate ways.' We then had an amicable divorce and he's still a friend, my h knows him, too, and he's a great support to our kids. He likes kids, he just never wanted one of his own.

But part of that, too, is realising what love really is, spotting out a future faker. No decision is still a decision. And if you choose to stay with a person who is incompatible with you on such a fundamental level, and forgo your fertility, that's on you, too. Yes, it's painful, my divorce was, there was a lot of love there, but if you don't love yourself and stand for what you need in life, no one else will, either.

FWIW, I have about 15 friends whom I consider very close, and they, too, some of whom I've been friends with for 35+ years, who never wanted children from the get go. They were not undecided, they always knew. Not a single one (the females are all now too old to reproduce and the males had vasectomies) regrets it.

It's definitely tricky when people are "undecided" on whether they want children or not, how on earth are you supposed to know what to do?!

Then there's the question of love. DH and I didn't know much about children, but we both felt deep love and some sort of nurturing instinct towards DD pretty much as soon as she was born.

It doesn't make us perfect parents at all, but there's a basic desire to take care of them and it's like that with most parents I know. If that's missing, it must be awful for the child.

You are correct

@Time2change2 can women not negotiate with their partner with what should be done?

Men never actually grow up. They get taller, but that's about it.

My stepdad was like this with me and his own two biological children. I was in my teens before I realised it wasn’t normal for men to be openly miserable about all the restrictions children put on your life. He resented my mother and ‘rebelled’ by refusing to do any household chores or childcare. In his case he is selfish, self absorbed and probably depressed too. It just never occurred to him that he was making our lives shit too with his moods. Many men just don’t have the same love and attachment to their children as mothers do.

I think that the men were forced into family life too soon sometimes and that if they weren't a hundred percent invested to begin with then they won't stay. I do think some men can be ar**holes but it isn't always their faults, depression, post natal depression, change in routine ect. This is why I believe in equal conversation about family progression and not just one wants a babu so they should have one. I think the commitment of a marriage and baby can scare a man (or the occasional woman!) and fight or flight kicks in. I personally as a woman have decided to just focus on myself and my partner and my career and we have set an age we will properly discuss children and see how the other feels. What I'm saying is most people can't seem to be truly honest from the get go and constantly updating communicating.

[quote Regretful123]@Time2change2 can women not negotiate with their partner with what should be done?[/quote]
Why would you want to be with a person, much less procreate with a person, you have to negotiate pulling their weight in life with, including bringing up children you both chose to bring into the world? Why is that you see what needs to be done and he does not? Do you have super powers? When he's at work, does he see what needs to be done and do it? Does he negotiate with his boss over what should be done? Why not at home then?

When you start to go down the path of being a relationship with a person who doesn't behave like a fully-functioning adult, you're already flogging a dead horse. This is not rocket science.

It's also often easy to spot. You start dating. You're in your late 20s or early 30s, say, you got to his house and it's an utter shit tip. His car is a shit tip. This is a red flag, a sign of a person who doesn't give a shit. Fair enough, it's his house, car, whatever.

But in choosing to even go on more dates with that person if you don't like your home or your car to be a shit tip, you're accepting this person doesn't give a shit. If you don't, either, fair enough, but if you do, why the fuck don't you just stop it with him? Yes, nobody's perfect, but c'mon, someone's whose home looks like an episode of 'How Clean Is Your House' is gross, not a fully-functioning adult, for whatever reason (and 9 times out of 10, the reason is because lifework is women's work). Be an adult and move on if it matters to you.

But far too often, again, it's conditioning. 'Don't be mean' 'Give him a chance' 'Train him! Make lists! (only dogs can be trained, adult males are not dogs)', learned behaviour, FOG, poor boundaries and being afraid of being alone.

One of the best posts I read on here, I saved it, was from a person who talked about diamond behaviour. 'If you're a diamond, would you sell yourself for a £50 Next voucher?' 'No, then why are you doing it now?'

That's not 'fussy' or 'picky' if you don't want to live with someone who is happy as a pig in shit, live and let live.

It's a sad situation when not wanting to be in a lasting relationship with someone who leaves the toilet a state or doesn't sweep up crumbs from a sandwich they make or put their used teabag in the bin is seen as picky or fussy.

People are not projects or puppies.

Love is respect. For oneself and then if and when you have that, you can extend it to others.

Maybe in the past this wasn’t as apparent because women had help from mother, MIL, aunties living close by. Nowadays people live far away from relatives, so maybe need more help from DH (ie maybe in the past men were not great either, but it wasn’t as noticeable - I don’t imagine many 1950s/1930s men would be up doing bottle feeds? But I could be wrong).

@Whataloadofshite

Men never actually grow up. They get taller, but that's about it.

That's sad and untrue and unfair. Don't go with men who are like that. Be happy in yourself in your own right, male or female. But most of all, be and adult, and that means being honest with yourself and then you can be so with others.

Achl, it's really your last sentence. Women get depressed, post-natal depression, etc, but are expected to soldier on. But truly what it is, is not being able to be honest with yourself and by extension, with others and then just punting for the path of least resistance. It doesn't have to be like that, but it will be if you're not able to be honest with yourself from the get go.

There is a lot of conditioning, though. I can remember bitching about men and relationships and two gay men were at the table and smirking. 'What's so funny?' 'A man would never put up with this shit from another man.'

Handing someone else your power is also a form of path of least resistance as well, and may also be the result of conditioning. It's easy. 'Men!' 'You have to train them!'

But it's not seeing them as people and adults who usually function perfectly well in the workplace and in society. It's not a huge expectation to expect that in all forms of life, same as you do of yourself. It's patronising bullshit that needs to stop if you want to be happy.

I do get this. My friend is so bitter as her ex was a terrible father to their child. Just wasn't interested at all. Left her and met someone else and they had children. Ten years on he absolutely dotes on them, couldn't do enough, but is still crap with my friend's grown up daughter, who doesn't have much to do with him. They once did have a frank conversation where he says he had children as all of his friends were having kids and his parents kept pressuring him for grandchildren. When it wasn't what he expected it soured the relationship too. Just a shame my poor friend was left holding the baby.

Sorry @DisobedientHamster I'm just simply implying if we're requesting equality that doesn't imply we change the functionality of men. We need to have constant honest conversation, something I as a woman can distinguish from blatant shthousery and us being over dramatic.

My DSM used to say that a lot of men are jealous of their own kids. As they're no longer the most important person in the room, getting all their partner's attention. I thought she must be wrong when I was younger but reading MN, maybe she had a point. Also I dont get why more of them don't speak up and say they dont want kids; seen a few where they just went along with it and then complain.

Sometimes I do not think anybody can handle family life, I cannot hand on heart say it was my childhood dream to get married and have offspring, still it happened and i am content and grateful,. OH is a knob head at times as I can be. I made it crystal clear right from the start that I aint going to be his personal slave.
His mum was a wise lady who showed him how to operate a washing machine, iron a shirt,make a basic meal, tidy up after self etc, our own teenager moans like a kevin but he does his whack or the XBOX gets it. We all muck in, no score keeping, whos done what rubbish

I am not taking men's side here whatsoever but in general men cannot multitask as well as women and a lot of the problem lies there. Also when men are physically tired they cannot continue and push like women can. I believe it is a biological fact as I did read it somewhere many moons ago and it stuck in my mind.

It is possible for men to be "great" dads whereas women are never more than "good enough" mums. Strange, you might think, until you look at the different standards for men and women.

A woman who does the following is a "good enough" mum:

• prepares 2-3 meals a day and snacks (including packed lunches for the kids);
• is primarily responsible for the children 24/7, including babycare, entertaining them and organising their lives;
• does most of the night feeds/getting up in the night with small children;
• does the lion's share of the household chores (cooking, cleaning, washing, shopping etc.);
• does all school pick-ups and nursery drop-offs;
• effectively carries the household's 'mental load' (organising parties, presents, school events, doctors, dentists, dealing with school inset days/nursery closures etc.).

However, she also needs to work, otherwise she is "living off her husband" and "not contributing her share". Why should he have to go out to work and work hard and pay for her and not have most of his money to spend on himself? Simultaneously, though, she is a bad mother if she works since she can't be there for her children or keep the house as clean and she shouldn't expect any help from her husband in doing school/nursery runs since it is her choice to work .

So a woman can never be more than a "good enough" mum. She is always failing at something.

A man is a "good enough" dad if he:

• changes the occasional nappy;
• puts his plates in the dishwasher;
• occasionally plays with his children at the weekend or takes them out for a few hours.

A man who does anything more than this is a "great" dad. A man who actually does half of what makes a woman a "good enough" mum is a candidate for sainthood.

If the parents are separated, a man is a "good enough" dad if he pays the minimum child support (even if it's only £25 per week, which seems a surprising common amount) and has the kids EOW. A woman who does this, though, is a "deadbeat mum". A man is a "great" dad if he pays more than the minimum CSA (even if it's not nearly half of what it actually costs to raise the children).

Women who are separated can never be "good enough" parents. Because they are irresponsible single mums . Also, they have no right expecting any maintenance from their exes because, you know, they will spend it on getting their nails done and not on the children.

Single dads are saints. Their exes are deadbeat mums.

My husband was a great husband and a great father - for 19 years. Then he turned 40, and decided he "didn't want to be responsible for a family anymore." That was 5 years ago. Now he sees our daughter, who's young, but our adult sons don't have a relationship with him at all. There were no red flags; it was like a switch flipped.

I think the problem is that there are no repercussions really for men who are shitty parents.

Socially women are vilified.

Child maintenance is a bit of a joke. I can say this with absolute certainty with my own experience.

There needs to be harsher penalties for fiddling the system. Non payers need dealing with properly. Not just a letter asking them to pay repeatedly.

Drink driving did not used to have such a stigma when I was a child, now it does as it should. The same shame should be applied to the above.

It gets me so angry. A lot of men talk a good talk and when it comes down to it can't back it up. So they leave, fuck the ex and kids about with access, Maintenence, drop arrangements at last minute, then meet a new women and tell her what a bitch their ex was and boom, new women pregnant and the cycle continues.

I hate my ex. I have no respect for him at all after the way he has behaved since we split up years ago. The csa are next to useless, he owes £10k in unpaid maintenance, yet he has just had a new baby with his new partner.

I can't get my head around these women who have kids with men like this. Why do they think it won't happen to them.

I definitely think the standards for men and women are different and unfair.

If a mum walks out on her kids and the dad is left to raise them, she’s considered absolutely evil and the dad is coined an inspiring hero.

If a dad walks out on his kids and the mum is left to raise them, she’s expected to just get on with it.