Large dogs should be leads if their owners can’t call them off kids

[CustardyCreams]

Today, a large Labrador ran into my toddler while we had stopped in a green space for a drink whilst on our daily exercise. The owner was calling the dog and he had about 20m to get the dog back under control so I figured the best thing was to hold my son to keep him calm and still, but I didn’t pick him up because I thought the movement might make the dog bark or jump up at us and that could be frightening. But the dog ignored its owner, I tried to push the dog off, but it barged me and got to my son, licked his water bottle and the snuffled his face and started licking his face, before it ran off having seen another dog to go and play with (the owner was laughing and telling the other dog owner his dog would grab the tennis ball off him ‘if he wasn’t careful’).

Although this wasn’t an aggressive dog, if an animal taller than you comes running at you, panting, licks your face, it is disconcerting at the very least, and this was a stranger’s dog so I was very shocked that the owner wasn’t able to call it off us; most dog owners I know would never allow their dog to approach a very young child like that. The dog seemed wildly excited, and I do think in that case, on public pathways, the owner has a responsibility to control the animal when there are so many young children out of school.

AIBU to have asked the owner to consider keeping his large dog on a long lead, given that there a large number of small children out of school and it is frightening for very small children to be approached and licked?

If it is a small dog, or a well-behaved large dog, I’ve absolutely no objection and we love looking at the woof-woofs usually when we are out for a walk.

Also - AIBU to not trust any large stranger’s dog around my 1 year old, regardless of breed? I was always told by dog-loving friends that no dog is entirely safe with a small child.

The reason I’m feeling sensitive about this, is that when my 10 year old daughter returned to me (she had scampered off to play in a patch of trees while we had our drink) I asked if she had seen or heard me talking to the dog’s owner. She said no, but I explained (admittedly quite dramatically ) what happened and I said I felt bad because I had not expected the dog to lick my son and his cup, and I froze ( I should havE picked my son up or pushed my body in front of my son, but the dog simply wouldn’t be pushed away).

I then laughed and said maybe I needed my daughter to teach me some martial arts moves to defend us next time! My daughter then obliged me by demonstrating a stomp kick, and I said, “exactly, a stomp kick, that would be the right move!” It was jokey.

However we were being a bit loud and another mum about 10m away with two girls in rather beautiful party dresses, suddenly shouted over to me that I was being melodramatic and teaching children to stomp kick dogs was animal cruelty and passing on my fear of dogs to other people was unacceptable , teaching children to be afraid of dogs is wrong, and on and on.( In case it’s not obvious, I agree with her - I haven’t taught either of my kids to actually kick dogs, or to be afraid of dogs in general, but strangers’ dogs we always are wary of, and wait to be invited to pet them, and always do so gently by coming up alongside the dog first and not thrusting a hand at its muzzle. In exchange I expect owners won’t let their animals off the lead if they can’t control their playfulness around tiny children and call the dog to heel).

I apologised right away if her daughters had overheard, and said it was only a joke, my girls are old enough to understand that I’m not truly advocating stomp-kicking a Labrador ( in my house when we are stressed we use sometimes quite dark humour to get us through it, and I was utterly shaken by the dog running at my son. I’m not usually bothered by dogs at all, but this one was just so persistent, if it had decided to bite I don’t think I could have stopped it).

My daughter was very upset and furious at this lady yelling at me, and I was totally taken aback. I mean in reality if a dog DOES attack you, and freezing, turning away, hiding your hands etc don’t stop it, isn’t kicking it actually recommended? Be clear - I’m still not advocating kicking your average Labrador. But if ever my daughter is attacked by a dog, shouldn’t she have a strategy?

By the way - my daughter does do martial arts for self defence. She does not know it, but the reason is I had a friend who was Brutally raped in broad daylight aged 16, walking home from school, and I will never be complacent about giving my daughter the confidence to try and defend herself. This still doesn’t mean I am turning her into a crazy dog-kicking lunatic. Does it?

Thank have my Doberman on a long line and am training her to be around other people/dogs without engaging with them. No way I would let her charge up to kids etc off lead. You might get away with it with a Labrador but with a 6st Doberman you’d be all over the local neighbour group. Breed discrimination pisses me off, ALL dogs need to learn social skills, from chihuahuas to Irish Wotlfhounds. No excuse for this.

In response to some other replies ... of a kid or toddler was chasing my dog and grabbing hold of her I’d go apeshit.

A few weeks ago a little girl (aged about 5) ran up to my Doberman and grabbed her around the neck for a “cuddle”. Fucking stupid idiotic parents.

All dogs should be on leads in busy public places. Only to be let off if there in a safe open space with no one else around and there’s very few places quiet like that at the minute.

I’m a dog lover and owner. I love dogs but I don’t like strange dogs approaching my children. My children would mind as such but I just don’t like it.

Once we were walking home from school. My son was running - he always runs rather than walk and we live a 3 minute walk from the school. He had a red jacket on with a reflective patch and because of the running he was swinging his book bag around innocently. A dog Came from nowhere and started aggressively barking at DS. The owner did apologise and said it was the movement and the reflective jacket.

They should be on leads if it’s busy and they have bad re call.

Wouldn’t not would mind

Definitely should be on a lead. Years ago when my daughter was a child we had a huge Rottweiler type dog come bounding upto us, I obviously didn’t know if it was friendly or not, my daughter was terrified I said to the owner can you get hold of your dog his response was to give me a load of abuse 🙄 wanker. I love dogs but never understand owners that aren’t responsible enough to put them in a lead, for the dogs safety as well

All dogs should only be off the lead if they have excellent recall and observant owners. Size is irrelevant.

My children are scared of dogs only because of the numerous times they've had dogs bounding up, jumping at them, trying to steal their sticks/ food, knocking them over etc.

My response to a jaunty "he's friendly!" is to growl "the child isn't!".
My children are obviously scared, cowering, backing off, wailing and most of the wretched owners are oblivious to the distress that their dog is causing which does fall within the realms of "not in control".

It was hard when the DCs were toddlers and the dogs were in their face. Then it eased as the DCs grew a little. It's got worse again as at 7 & 9, the DCs now spread out a little and are gradually learning independence as they should be, but I'm not within a step or two to intervene when a random dog bounds up causing distress. Lockdown has made it worse because in the continued absence of school, play areas, extra curriculars, access to friends and leisure, the only thing my children can do is go for a walk/ scoot/ bike ride, and my young humans are at least as entitled to use public open space as feckless dog owners (and responsible ones, but they are not the problem). I also supect that there's been an increase in non-usual dog walkers exercising dogs from the increase in dog shit around the paths and verges.

I shouldn't end up with dirty clothes by 9:30 am because a random dog has jumped up covering my jacket/ trousers with streaks of mud or slobber.

All dogs should be under control and an owner who allows their dog to be a nuisence or cause distress to others is commiting an offense.

@Manchmallehrerin in the same way, why should dogs have to find somewhere else to exercise because there are now lots of children in the places they normally walk.

I walk our dog on the exact same routes that we always have, but now there are lots more people there and one field/park with lots of picnics and children. So in fact it is families and children that are encroaching on dog walking spaces.

After an incident in our local park a few years ago, I am now very wary of dogs, let alone my DC who was snapped at and almost bitten.
The dog owner said 'she's a collie, they are known to nip' as though I should just accept that as ok, even though it ran up unprovoked to us.

@BreathlessCommotion

This is another good point. I’ve always tried to walk my dog away from “people” areas ... such as rocky, bleak beaches, wasteland fields, nature reserve ... now everywhere we go there are kids and families. It is annoying. Can’t wait till they all bugger off back to work.

why should dogs have to find somewhere else to exercise because there are now lots of children in the places they normally walk.

Well, because we're in the middle of a global pandemic and everyone's having to make sacrifices. Why should your dog be exempt?

I hate this idea that certain spaces are for dogs (unless they are literally labelled/ signposted as such) and that humans are causing some kind of offence by going there. We have a beautiful park with amazing views over the Mersey near me. I was running there once and saw an off lead dog approach. I moved to the other side of a very wide path to give the owner an opportunity to recall dog of necessary. Instead the owner allowed it to run over to me, nearly knocking me over.
His response to me remarking he should have called it was that I shouldn't have been in a dog park.
I may have lost my temper....

All dogs in a public place should be on a lead as otherwise they are not able to be controlled. What you will get through is howls of protest from the dog lover brigade who think a dogs rights supersede any human right, especially the right to life and not be fucking bitten and savaged by dogs

Rant over

My dog has perfect recall but I leash her when there are children around. Not because she wouldn't come to me but more because she is small and cute and not all children have been taught to ask to stroke an unknown dog and my dog isn't really interested in people outside her family.
I have changed my route in lockdown though as the trails have been so busy that it's not much fun for the dog when she has to be on her leash much of the time.

I almost fell off my bike a few weeks ago (shared space before anyone says anything) as two small dogs ran straight in front of bikes front wheel-if I hadn’t braked hard I would have hit them both. My tire skidded and I had to try really hard not to fall. The dog owner didn’t even notice, so I shouted to get their attention and told than that if their dog isn’t under control, it should be on a lead. I was then told it was my fault as “that’s what dogs do” and I should “look where I’m going”

I dont think a dog supersedes a humans right to be in the park, however I think my dog has a right to have fun just as much as humans do, and unlike humans the park is pretty much the only outlet for his fun. Since my dog has no history of violence, aggression or intimidating behaviour I'm happy to take my chances that I might displease someone from the 'all dogs should be on leads brigade', as my dogs happiness is worth more to me than worrying that someone being slightly inconvenienced by his presence in the dog park off a lead.

And yes there has been some stories of careless dog owners on here, but most dogs off lead are absolutely fine. So no I don't believe all dogs should be on lead in public places. Thinking about it I think my dog brings significantly more joy to people in the park than bother, people love watching him play and are always coaxing him over for a cuddle. So I'm not keeping my dog on a lead at all times to satisfy some people from mumsnet. My pooch can play off his lead in the dog park with all the other off lead pooches to his hearts content.

Also I agree with the premise of the thread that your dog should be on a lead if they bother kids and don't come back when told.

I just dont agree that all dogs no matter what circumstances should always be on lead. I think there's plenty of time dogs can appropriately enjoy off lead time in public spaces.

All dogs of any size should be on a lead unless they have reliable recall. Dogs should never be allowed to approached children, likewise children shouldn't be allowed to approach dogs. I have a young dog who sometimes forgets her manners when she gets excited, which means she stays on a long line. Her recall is about 75% reliable, but I just don't risk it.

A friendly dog gave my 3 a year old a spiral fracture in her leg recently. We were stood stationary to let the dogs and owners pass us as we were walking slower than they were. They did nothing when their dogs approached us, just kept walking. They heard my daughter's screams as she landed on her head after literally being lifted up into the air by one of their dogs. They just kept looking back, waited for their dogs to catch up, and kept walking while occasionally looking back at us. Probably still hearing my 3 year old hysterically screaming. We know from other dog walkers her screams could be heard right across the field.

You have to be careful how you react though, it's a balance between protecting your children and not making them afraid. When dogs approach us now, my first instinct is to pick my daughter up, but I don't want her to start worrying. Now I position her between our dog and myself and keep blocking the dog with my legs

I'm happy to take my chances that I might displease someone from the 'all dogs should be on leads brigade', as my dogs happiness is worth more to me than worrying that someone being slightly inconvenienced by his presence in the dog park off a lead.

Is your dogs happiness worth more than peoples safety? Or their right to not be jumped on?

My dog is mostly off lead. He is recalled if there are children we are going to pass or other dogs on lead even though he would just walk around them than go up to them. But YANBU OP, if my dog wasn't reliable he wouldn't be off lead.

slightly inconvenienced by his presence in the dog park off a lead.

People aren't talking about dog parks here.
They are talking about standard public parks which in the UK often allow unleashed dogs which are meant to be under control.

Dog parks are a different situation as they are specifically for unleashed dogs and pretty rare in the UK. It would be very unlikely that anyone without a dog or with a problem with unleashed dogs would go to a dog park.

@TwilightPeace

My dog doesn't make anyone unsafe. He minds his own business and doesnt jump on people unless that person has coaxed him over. So I'm happy to take the 'risk' of him being off lead. If I was for a second to think he was a threat then that would be another matter. I agreed that some dogs need to be on lead but I just don't think it's fair that it's a universal thing for all dogs when a lot of dogs are no bother off the lead and the worse they'll do is block your path.

@midwestsummer

The park I'm referring to is unclear. While there is nothing that officially calls it a dog park, people on Facebook and locals refer to the park as the 'dog park', but I think this is just because people associate with a lot of dogs. People just tend to let their dogs off in the middle of the field and watch them run around. There can be up to 20 dogs running around together off lead. But there has been some comments on here that seem to suggest it should be a rule that all dogs are on lead under all circumstances, and I'm just saying there's some circumstances where it is appropriate to let them off.

I grew up with dogs and know how to tell if a dog is friendly and if they have got a good owner. I am teaching my DC how to tell if a dog is going to be friendly and always make sure they stay quiet and wait until the owner is there and says it’s ok before they try and say hello. I’ve lost count of the number of times owners bellow “No need to be scared, they’re friendly” or some such as their large dog runs up to my DC completely ignoring what they’re owner is shouting at them. My SIL is a He Doesn’t Mean It dog owner. Their “puppy” aka full sized labradoodle is completely out of control and when we suggested he should be kept away from the DC (who were face to mouth at the time) we were told we shouldn’t make the DC scared of dogs and he was “friendly”. BIL brought his terrier to the party and there were 3 dog fights in the 2 hours we stayed. Strangely, both dogs didn’t mean it and were both friendly. SIL had apparently thought the best idea would be to put the small dog in a travel cage and let them “get to know each other”. That ended in fight #4. Dogs should always be on a lead, children should have a healthy respect for animals, dog owners need to realise that even their friendly dog is capable of biting (and saying “he’s never done that before” doesn’t make anything better) and the other mum was BVU!

Some arsehole let his dog come and eat all DS’ snacks in the park a couple of weeks ago. Wasn’t sorry. Dog wouldn’t come back when he eventually bothered calling.

I would never let my dog do this. YANBU

Totally agree with you.
We had a dog jump in the car when we were just about to get DS out, he was terrified and still strapped in so couldn't move.
Took months to get him over his fear of all animals after that.

why should dogs have to find somewhere else to exercise because there are now lots of children in the places they normally walk

Not an unreasonable point - everywhere is much busier. But I feel that as a runner and just have to accept that as people are not at work/on holiday/in the swimming pool/at the gym/other places, they are out walking getting in my way .

I have an acquaintance who runs a dog field which you can rent for by the hour to exercise your dog without having other people around. It sounds like a great idea, I wish there were more of them.