Large dogs should be leads if their owners can’t call them off kids

[CustardyCreams]

Today, a large Labrador ran into my toddler while we had stopped in a green space for a drink whilst on our daily exercise. The owner was calling the dog and he had about 20m to get the dog back under control so I figured the best thing was to hold my son to keep him calm and still, but I didn’t pick him up because I thought the movement might make the dog bark or jump up at us and that could be frightening. But the dog ignored its owner, I tried to push the dog off, but it barged me and got to my son, licked his water bottle and the snuffled his face and started licking his face, before it ran off having seen another dog to go and play with (the owner was laughing and telling the other dog owner his dog would grab the tennis ball off him ‘if he wasn’t careful’).

Although this wasn’t an aggressive dog, if an animal taller than you comes running at you, panting, licks your face, it is disconcerting at the very least, and this was a stranger’s dog so I was very shocked that the owner wasn’t able to call it off us; most dog owners I know would never allow their dog to approach a very young child like that. The dog seemed wildly excited, and I do think in that case, on public pathways, the owner has a responsibility to control the animal when there are so many young children out of school.

AIBU to have asked the owner to consider keeping his large dog on a long lead, given that there a large number of small children out of school and it is frightening for very small children to be approached and licked?

If it is a small dog, or a well-behaved large dog, I’ve absolutely no objection and we love looking at the woof-woofs usually when we are out for a walk.

Also - AIBU to not trust any large stranger’s dog around my 1 year old, regardless of breed? I was always told by dog-loving friends that no dog is entirely safe with a small child.

The reason I’m feeling sensitive about this, is that when my 10 year old daughter returned to me (she had scampered off to play in a patch of trees while we had our drink) I asked if she had seen or heard me talking to the dog’s owner. She said no, but I explained (admittedly quite dramatically ) what happened and I said I felt bad because I had not expected the dog to lick my son and his cup, and I froze ( I should havE picked my son up or pushed my body in front of my son, but the dog simply wouldn’t be pushed away).

I then laughed and said maybe I needed my daughter to teach me some martial arts moves to defend us next time! My daughter then obliged me by demonstrating a stomp kick, and I said, “exactly, a stomp kick, that would be the right move!” It was jokey.

However we were being a bit loud and another mum about 10m away with two girls in rather beautiful party dresses, suddenly shouted over to me that I was being melodramatic and teaching children to stomp kick dogs was animal cruelty and passing on my fear of dogs to other people was unacceptable , teaching children to be afraid of dogs is wrong, and on and on.( In case it’s not obvious, I agree with her - I haven’t taught either of my kids to actually kick dogs, or to be afraid of dogs in general, but strangers’ dogs we always are wary of, and wait to be invited to pet them, and always do so gently by coming up alongside the dog first and not thrusting a hand at its muzzle. In exchange I expect owners won’t let their animals off the lead if they can’t control their playfulness around tiny children and call the dog to heel).

I apologised right away if her daughters had overheard, and said it was only a joke, my girls are old enough to understand that I’m not truly advocating stomp-kicking a Labrador ( in my house when we are stressed we use sometimes quite dark humour to get us through it, and I was utterly shaken by the dog running at my son. I’m not usually bothered by dogs at all, but this one was just so persistent, if it had decided to bite I don’t think I could have stopped it).

My daughter was very upset and furious at this lady yelling at me, and I was totally taken aback. I mean in reality if a dog DOES attack you, and freezing, turning away, hiding your hands etc don’t stop it, isn’t kicking it actually recommended? Be clear - I’m still not advocating kicking your average Labrador. But if ever my daughter is attacked by a dog, shouldn’t she have a strategy?

By the way - my daughter does do martial arts for self defence. She does not know it, but the reason is I had a friend who was Brutally raped in broad daylight aged 16, walking home from school, and I will never be complacent about giving my daughter the confidence to try and defend herself. This still doesn’t mean I am turning her into a crazy dog-kicking lunatic. Does it?

I’ve had a big dog in the park steal my toddler DS’s marmite sandwich out of his hand. If your dog is that badly trained they shouldn’t be off a lead!

Any dog that doesnt come when being called should be one a lead, definitely.

But please dont think that I large dog is more dangerous than a small dog. Often it is the opposite and many large dogs where bread to be guard/hunting dogs so will bark more/are more likely to bite.
I've had a small dog whom I know in his old age I would not let near my daughter as he was very protective of my mum and I'd be scared he got jealous. I know have a big dog (newfoundland) who would never do a thing to her. I day that as hes been barked at and even attacked on multiple occasions by small dogs and he has never done anything back. He tries to get away every single time. Many times the small dog owners do not tell their dog to stop barking or have enough control of their dog to prevent it from attacking another dog..

So sick of stupid, selfish dog owners.

I wish there was an enforceable legal requirement for dogs to meet a minimum standard of behaviour/training in order to be allowed off a lead. Obviously impossible to enforce practically, but it would be nice for the rest of us!

When my dd was about 3 she was knocked off her feet by a dog jumping up at her then about a month later another dog pinched a sandwich out of her hand, these two events made her scared to death of dogs. We've worked really hard to get her so that she's just nervous, not terrified of them and before lock down she was doing much better. However since lock down dog owners near us seem to be less and less bothered about keeping their dogs close and under control . Several times a week we get the bloody 'he's just being friendly!', dogs jumping up whilst their owners are strolling along , way behind them etc.

Dogs should be on a lead unless they're going to stay close to their owner and have good recall.
Can I just ask dog owners, is 'recall' the most appropriate word for it (as in call your dog back to you and get it away from us! )? Is it commonly known I mean? When a dog jumps up at us I pick dd up and shout to the owners 'please recall your dog'. Some of them genuinely don't seem to get it.

Yes. My dog's recall is impeccable and she has zero interest in other people on walks (and will actively avoid children) but I still put her on lead when we see other people. We only go places she can be largely off-lead as fully on-lead walks aren't for us, but I worked super hard on her recall as a puppy so that we can do that, and she always goes on lead to pass unknown people or dogs (she stays off if it's one of the other dog-walkers we know).

Of course YANBU for thinking dogs should be on leads if they have no recall but if you were loud enough in a park for someone to overhear you talking about stomping on a dog then it's not really unreasonable that someone was upset by it?

You have brought up lots of different points in your post so
YANBU about the labrador
The other dog walker was also not unreasonable for not wanting to hear you talking about stomping on a dog

I would be more annoyed about the initial thing that happened and just forget about the rest of it.

I'm an owner of a dog with selective hearing and zero recall. He's a tiny Lhasa who wouldn't hurt anything, but there's no way he could ever be off the lead. Not because I don't trust him, but because I know not all people like dogs to "say hello", or even like dogs at all.

All dogs, whatever the size, should be under the owner's full control at all times.

If a normally reliable dog makes a mistake, then I would expect a contrite owner. And if I was that owner the dog would be immediately back on lead and have more recall training.

I’m a dog owner and a parent of a previously dog terrified kid. She used to scream at the sight of a dog and had to be carried past them. Dogs shouldn’t approach unknown people or dogs. If they can’t be recalled then they should be on leads in people places. Mine used to lick random kids so he was on a lead in people places (off lead in fields and woods - we are very rural so I rarely meet anyone but other known dog walkers once I hit the paths). Now he’s grown up he ignores anyone and any dog who he isn’t already friendly with so there’s less need to keep him on a lead. He just walks past them as if they were invisible (and he recalls fine if needed).

I’d also appreciate parents telling kids to ask before stroking. Mine is not interested in kids other than his own and whilst he won’t bite other peoples kids he obviously isn’t keen on being mauled and you’d be amazed how often it happens without warning!

We had a dog take a sandwich out of my toddlers hand last week. Happens all the time around here with the owner just shouting the dogs name and the dog completely ignoring them. When they finally get the dog back they never put it on the lead so this must happen repeatedly on their walk.
Dogs should be kept on a lead if they don’t have proper recall. I don’t think dog owners really understand this. It doesn’t mean that the dog eventually returns!!!

Are there no leash laws in the UK?
Sounds like the fines might bring in some revenue...
In Colorado, we do have those laws and they are enforced most of the time. People here are crazy about their dogs, and I know a few who are out of control all because their owners refuse to discipline them - the tiny dogs are the worst, frankly.

All dogs should be on leads ATM, unless the owner is in full control and the dog obedient - regardless of size.

In the current climate of social distancing, as with small children, it is important that they don't "scamper off" unsupervised.
Teaching or encouraging a child to kick animals is never acceptable - as a PP has suggested, in an attack situation it is more likely to aggravate the situation.
A bit like allowing children to carry knives.

My dog will recall but I still put him on a lead around children because it's the responsible thing to do. Both children and dogs can be unpredictable, after all.

However please don't tar all large dogs with the same brush. Lots of them are perfectly well behaved.

ALL dogs should be on leads if they dont have perfect recall.

@panicmode1
3. If your children are scared of dogs, please don't walk them in known dog walking areas and then scream blue murder when one has the audacity to walk past you, even if it's not doing anything to you/your child/your possessions/your food.

If i followed that my kids would not be able to leave the pavement. All the playparks are closed. Why shouldn’t my DCs be allowed to play in the local park. There isn’t much left to them at the moment to be honest. My DCs are very wary of dogs as too many irresponsible dog owners have let their badly trained dogs rush up and bother us. Neither or them ever approach a dog at the park.

Equally, why can’t people enjoy a picnic in a public area. I am still pissed off with the dog owner who had a go at me for allowing their dog to steal a chicken leg from my lunch. Not sure why I should be expected to control it when they couldn’t. And I am not prepared to plan my lunch to be dog safe when I don’t have one!

YANBU. At the moment when walking with my 2 year old and my 4 month old in a baby carrier there have been occasions when people let their dogs bound up to us, frightening my toddler (who loves dogs but not strange ones running at her). And letting them jump up at me carrying my baby. It gives me the rage! I have to restrain myself from telling the owners what I think of them because I don’t want my daughter to be frightened. But it’s hard. If you can’t recall your dog it should be on a lead.

@Manchmallehrerin - big difference between child being allowed to play in a park and "scampering off" unsupervised and being taught to kick dogs.
I'm fed up with being in a park and unsupervised children wandering up and standing about eighteen inches away, playing football so close that the football hits me or lands on my mat three times in five minutes....
The last mother that I commented that if she didn't teach her child social distancing, maybe it getting covid would solve the problem, she seemed to get upset.

YANBU. It was unfortunate that someone overheard your conversation and got the impression you were advocating cruelty to dogs, but just forget about that and maybe lower your voice a bit next time you're outside, to avoid being judged by strangers.

If a dog attacks you, you have a right to do whatever it takes to defend yourself. I know somebody who had to fight off their own elderly dog, when it turned rogue one day for no apparent reason, and viciously attacked him. It was an awful experience and the dog was put down immediately. The man needed stitches and if he'd not fought the dog off with all his strength it could have killed him, because it just kept coming at him. Very frightening.

I agree with others who said they don't want to be slobbered over by someone else's dog, not matter how friendly the dog is. We need to find a way to enforce responsible dog ownership, but I've no idea how this could be done. Dogs bring a lot of pleasure to people, but there are too many irresponsible and lazy owners.

I can honestly say i hate (yes hate) arrogant dog owners that refuse to control their animals. So many places are off limits for children because of these arrogant fuckwits. It is time new laws where brought making it illegal to allow dogs to be off the lead unless it is in a designated dog walking area.

YANBU, the owner should have anticipated his dog running over and should have apologised and that lady should have been able to mind her own business.

Any dog, big or small, shouldn't be off the lead unless they have recall. When dh and I walk our 3 dogs we are always alert to small children and people on blankets because our small dogs think they are potential friends and, left unchecked, would run up and lick them.

I would be mortified if one of our dogs actually knocked into a child and licked them and their drink bottle. The worst one of ours did was wee on a football some kids were play with. I used my cardigan to wipe it clean I was so embarrassed

Theres a park near me, that is pretty much known as a dog park. Near enough no one walks through it unless they have a dog, so myself and many other dog walkers would all let the dogs off the lead and there would sometimes be up to 20 dogs all playing together and it's an absolute joy to see. Sometimes families would come watch them play and pet them. Ever since lock down the park has filled with more families and its caused some tensions. Families kicking off that dogs are running around, dog owners are kicking off that if you don't want dogs around you shouldn't go to such a known dog playing spot.

Personally for me, my dog being able to play is very important and I care more about that than someones child being mildly startled (which I know with my dog is what it is, he doesn't jump or lick strangers but might brush past as he Is wondering around - the majority of toddlers or kids giggle and pat him when this happens). If I knew he was an actual threat that would be different but I'm not depriving my dog of joy just incase he slightly irritates someone. People scowl and judge each other these days for everything and anything so I'm passed caring really. I'd rather get a dirty look and come home with a happy dog.

However I have compromised and I take him off the lead only when the park is quiet at the moment, usually early or late or when the weather is bad.

Are there no leash laws in the UK?

They are local byelaws, and can vary considerably.

At the start of lockdown our council updated ours, so that in just about every park any dog must be put on lead immediately if so directed by a parks official or other council employee (can be fined for non compliance). Some areas were designated dog-free. Also information campaign for all dogs on to be on lead during lockdown

I think YABU for your comments, made loudly enought for others to notice, and encouraging aggression. In both your DC and in dogs. Not the way for good co-existence

YABVU in suggesting that only large dogs should be kept under control. I was bitten by a Jack Russel as a child and still have scars to this day.
All dogs that don’t have good recall should be kept on leads, I have a large dog who is overly friendly so never let him off if people are around, but you could definitely be way more at risk of my mothers Jack Russel who is horrible and bites all the time, than my overly friendly mastiff who will lean against you for back scratches.

I just don’t understand these dog owners who let their dogs do whatever they want off the lead.

I have two smallish dogs & a toddler and they are never allowed off lead when other people / dogs are around. One of the reasons is because the male dog would protect the toddler with his life from any perceived danger.

I wish we had fenced in dog enclosures / play parks where dogs were allowed off lead and then had to be on lead everywhere else like they have in other countries.