I don’t think I believe in “God” anymore

[anonymous1120]

I feel really low today, my trigger was reading an online story about how Madeline’s body might be found in a few days as police think it’s 30 mins from hotel in a well. I’m sorry I stopped reading so details might not be fully accurate. My eldest daughter has just turned 4 and it’s really upset me thinking what Maddie might have gone through in her last moments.

I know some people will respond negatively to me and hence the name change. I’m really struggling to think how can God really exist and let awful and evil things happen all the time. My faith has really been tested over the years and I do not believe in God anymore.

"Then we have nature, earth quakes, droughts, floods, disease. None of these are God's actions."

cabbageking Did you genuinely forget that your god is supposed to have created the world and everything in it? Apparently he sat up late one night inventing terminal childhood diseases and the miscarriage.

Well unless he is just a myth based on the beliefs of a small nomadic tribe in the middle east.

I'm so very sorry that was your experience of church, @FreeFromDinoMeat, how horrible for you and it's no wonder you feel like you'd never want to go near one if you were treated that way.

It grieves me to hear of churches like this because they are so far from the heart of what they purport to believe in and follow. I can only assure you that many people's experience is of the opposite. My church (most people at least) are some of the kindest, most compassionate people I've ever known and follow through everything with practical care. During lockdown they divided up a long list of people who were vulnerable or lonely and phone them every day or two, they've been taking food parcels to people and in general being out there in the community. Thankfully we believe in honesty and standing with one another through the tough times in life. I've seen love in action countless times through these people, and in many other churches I've been involved with, which is so beautiful because it reflects the earliest church and their priorities. Obviously people are human and mess up and can be very difficult and unkind and you find that in churches as well as outside them. And occasionally you'll get a whole church with an ethos of fakery and hypocrisy and I believe they will be judged extra harshly for this. I know, though, that this doesn't help you and I am not trying to minimise what happened to you - I hear you and I stand with you in anger against what you experienced.

The church can be awful but can also - and more often - be wonderful, a collection of flawed people who still want to model their lives on Jesus and do. I'm heartened by so many stories of churches who work in their communities and demonstrate the love of God in word and action.

I hate the church when it goes wrong, and through much of history. But love the church when it has at its heart the love of its neighbours and the prioritisation of the weak and oppressed, and the support of those who need it. I love what the church can and should be, even if it is only a tiniest glimpse of how things will be.

@LastTrainEast gosh that's sad. I've never, in all my years of faith, heard anyone describe a non believer in the terms you use, and if I heard that preached I would not be a part of that church. And I've been round a lot of churches (I'm in church leadership). I'm so sad that is your experience.

I honestly want to face palm so much when I hear these stories of Christians being so utterly crap. I'm sorry

@Nofunkingworriesmate You've clearly never lived in Kentucky.

If God existed, and loved us, why does he give innocent children cancer? Why do the murderers get to live? Why aren't they suffering?

God does not exist. If he does, he's a highly cruel person.

Just my two pence worth because I could tie my head into knots all day wondering how an omnipotent, benevolent God could allow such suffering as we see everyday. I once read a piece that said if you put an ant on a table in front of you and tried to scare it, it wouldn't react - simply because you are too vast for an ant's brain to comprehend. We are, it continued, the ants, and 'god' in whatever form is the vast being beyond our comprehension. That's as far as my acceptance of God goes. I had a pretty horrible childhood/teen years and I've never quite forgiven the 'god' I was taught created me and loved me and would protect me.

I'm really surprised so many on this thread assume that belief in God means believing in an all controlling, powerful God... lots of people believe in a God that is more of a presence, a watcher that is not able to intervene with anything, and thats my argument to the whole "if there is a God why do children get cancer" argument... I don't believe God has any control over that in the first place.

This- exactly this. It seems the majority of people really have no idea of what God is, to them he is some magical puppet who pulls strings to make things happen, when in fact things simply happen in life, good and bad, nothing to do with God.

I lost any semblance of faith after reading the bible.

It's all well and good being told what it says bya pastor or priest who has made it palatable etc but when you read it there is no getting around the fact it's a bunch of bronze age insanity with all sorts of lunacy and sacrifices and "medical advice"

Also gospel of Timothy. 2:12

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence".

Yeaaaaa......

I'm good thanks

@eaglejulesk

I'm really surprised so many on this thread assume that belief in God means believing in an all controlling, powerful God... lots of people believe in a God that is more of a presence, a watcher that is not able to intervene with anything, and thats my argument to the whole "if there is a God why do children get cancer" argument... I don't believe God has any control over that in the first place.

This- exactly this. It seems the majority of people really have no idea of what God is, to them he is some magical puppet who pulls strings to make things happen, when in fact things simply happen in life, good and bad, nothing to do with God.

Well yes that's because that's the definition of a God.

A simple watcher with no power is not a God, just an alien with a voyeuristic fetish.

lots of people believe in a God that is more of a presence, a watcher that is not able to intervene with anything, and thats my argument to the whole "if there is a God why do children get cancer" argument... I don't believe God has any control over that in the first place.

But if God is just a being who sits around watching us, why would anyone worship him? Why does the church keep banging on about how great he is? And what was the point of the whole sending his son to earth to die for us episode? In fact, if he doesn't have any power to intervene, how did he manage anything that happened in the New Testament at all, miracles included?

Madeline’s final hours may have been awful but in my eyes at least she’s in heaven now.
Would you really want to be imprisoned forever with a 'god' who had caused and allowed this to happen to you and was commanding that you worship him eternally?

I can't think of anything worse!

My eldest daughter has just turned 4 and it’s really upset me thinking what Maddie might have gone through in her last moments.

Have not read the whole thread, OP, and I hope I am repeating previous content when I say that if knowledge of famine, slavery, war and the Holocaust hadn't given you cause to ponder this before then thoughts triggered by your sentimental reaction to the possible fate of one photogenic, highly publicised but casually parented child probably aren't going to be groundbreaking material on the theological front.

TL;DR

Sheesh.

The concept of a god that is neither omnipotent or omnipresent, but merely a benign creator who then takes no further part in the course of the universe conveniently avoids the 'why does god kill children' type awkward questions, but it does nothing to satisfy a gamut of remaining logical contradictions and incongruities.

Still, there isn't a single shred of evidence for such a god, it screams of a desperation to explain things that don't actually require explanations, it still adds a needless layer of complexity to the universe, and it doesn't resolve the questions of the origins of 'god', or what god was doing before they got around to inventing the universe. Why invent something then sit around for all eternity as a passive observer? There's TV, the internet, sports, video games, etc as alternative forms of entertainment. Are we seriously supposed to believe that god is so petty and self-indulgent that they'd create a universe purely for their own entertainment?

It's still nonsense despite ducking some of the more difficult questions posed by the typical omnipotent, omnipresent god proposed by most of the organised religions.

@Sin8e

It's all well and good being told what it says bya pastor or priest who has made it palatable etc but when you read it there is no getting around the fact it's a bunch of bronze age insanity with all sorts of lunacy and sacrifices and "medical advice" Also gospel of Timothy. 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence".

The Bible is a collection of books if different genres written at different periods in history and thus should be read using the tools of interpretation (hermeneutics) we have at our disposal, as any work from antiquity. We cannot expect such work to simply fall into line with our 21st century way of thinking. There is stuff that it is hard to get our heads around, but there is also so much that offers life and hope and transformation, and it is packed full of very counter cultural stuff such as the early church and their attitude to others around them, especially the weakest members of society so disposable in the Roman autocracy. The earliest Christ followers flouted sacred and societal rules and directives in order to love the oppressed and put faith into action.

The passage you quote (one of Paul's letters to Timothy, not the gospel of Timothy, that doesn't exist) was a letter addressing a certain situation cropping up in a particular church or group in response to a society of abusive temple worship. It's a radical passage because Paul is saying women should learn. Finally, women should be allowed to actually take part in learning about the scriptures, where their society have repressed them and kept them as objects, now they are people with intelligence and so should 'learn quietly' ie take time in their learning and be given time in that as well. It's certainly not a directive across churches that women should not speak as elsewhere Paul talks clearly about women prophesying in churches and commends them, and his letters are full of his praise for certain women in leadership in the communities which was again utterly countercultural to the Jewish way of thinking and the typical Roman repression of women.

Taking the Bible at immediate face value does not afford it the depth and the riches it was penned with. Thankfully we have textual and form criticism tools to get right into the text and the original Greek etc in order to build a picture of what was going on and what was actually being said.

[quote Madhairday]@Sin8e

It's all well and good being told what it says bya pastor or priest who has made it palatable etc but when you read it there is no getting around the fact it's a bunch of bronze age insanity with all sorts of lunacy and sacrifices and "medical advice" Also gospel of Timothy. 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence".

The Bible is a collection of books if different genres written at different periods in history and thus should be read using the tools of interpretation (hermeneutics) we have at our disposal, as any work from antiquity. We cannot expect such work to simply fall into line with our 21st century way of thinking. There is stuff that it is hard to get our heads around, but there is also so much that offers life and hope and transformation, and it is packed full of very counter cultural stuff such as the early church and their attitude to others around them, especially the weakest members of society so disposable in the Roman autocracy. The earliest Christ followers flouted sacred and societal rules and directives in order to love the oppressed and put faith into action.

The passage you quote (one of Paul's letters to Timothy, not the gospel of Timothy, that doesn't exist) was a letter addressing a certain situation cropping up in a particular church or group in response to a society of abusive temple worship. It's a radical passage because Paul is saying women should learn. Finally, women should be allowed to actually take part in learning about the scriptures, where their society have repressed them and kept them as objects, now they are people with intelligence and so should 'learn quietly' ie take time in their learning and be given time in that as well. It's certainly not a directive across churches that women should not speak as elsewhere Paul talks clearly about women prophesying in churches and commends them, and his letters are full of his praise for certain women in leadership in the communities which was again utterly countercultural to the Jewish way of thinking and the typical Roman repression of women.

Taking the Bible at immediate face value does not afford it the depth and the riches it was penned with. Thankfully we have textual and form criticism tools to get right into the text and the original Greek etc in order to build a picture of what was going on and what was actually being said.[/quote]
Your point is interesting but utterly destroys the religious significance that it is the word of God and undermines any power that God has if it's own manifesto such a shambolic mess.

I don't agree that it takes away the significance of scripture. I believe scripture is inspired by God and so we find the word and hope and freedom God offers through the pages. I am not an 'every word must be read literally' kind of believer as I feel that would not be applying our reason and intelligence to the text and accounting for genre-specific writings, but I do believe it contains words of life and truth and certain moral absolutes in ef the 10 commandments and especially in Jesus' teaching and manifesto. The fact that it is a 'mess' - or maybe more a beautiful and sometimes frustrating tapestry of life-giving words, to me does not lessen the power of God but highlights the desire of this God to live among and work through humanity. Jesus' life and death were messy, out of sorts with the religious expectations of the time, and God getting into the world in human form was messy, leaving behind the perfection and status of divinity and experiencing the pain we experience gives a glimpse of God's priorities of sacrificial love, a love that doesn't stand aloof or dictate some kind of perfectly formed piece of literature, but a love that gets in the mess and communicates to humans through humans who have grasped hold of the spark of the divine. I wouldn't want a document that simply told me what to do from a far away deity; I love the wideness and wildness of the biblical texts, the fact that they contain so much depths and the layers are there to discover, the fact that they continue to fascinate millions upon millions of people and draw then towards this God who loves them and has spoken through messy humans just like them.

Sorry about typos. Must proof read...

You know these things have been happening since human beings have been around, and much worse. Went on before Madeleine and will go on long after.

Instead of why did God let this happen, how about asking why do human beings let this happen.