I don’t think I believe in “God” anymore

[anonymous1120]

I feel really low today, my trigger was reading an online story about how Madeline’s body might be found in a few days as police think it’s 30 mins from hotel in a well. I’m sorry I stopped reading so details might not be fully accurate. My eldest daughter has just turned 4 and it’s really upset me thinking what Maddie might have gone through in her last moments.

I know some people will respond negatively to me and hence the name change. I’m really struggling to think how can God really exist and let awful and evil things happen all the time. My faith has really been tested over the years and I do not believe in God anymore.

XDown

Yes, the understanding is that the law of first cause doesn't have to apply to the one who caused. The universe must have a cause because it began (because of expansion). God is eternal and outside of time, as the author of time. Therefore it's impossible to try and answer a question about what God was up to before creating this universe. I'm not going to try and fudge through that one, but what remains for me is that it makes more sense for there to be a cause, and unless you want to attribute it to little green aliens (Dawkins preferred that idea to the God one) then God seems a good possibility. We don't look at a painting and try to claim there must be no painter. Simplistic, yes, but we were talking about simple explanations, Occam's Razor and all that. I have no idea if we were the first universe or amidst a million others, but I look at humanity; messed up yes, but glorious, beautiful, intelligent, reasonable, capable of great good and great joy, and fail to see how we can deny an author of life. God was always about relationship - relationship is at the heart of who God is, within the mystery of the trinity - and relationship was God's purpose in creation - with one another and with the creator.

@priya38

Never heard the phrase "what goes around comes around"?

Of course I have, and I don't believe there's any truth in it. Just as I don't believe in the concept of 'karma'.

@ChickenBLC

It was a fucking example I was giving. I never said they deserved it. Dismiss my original ideology. I'm fed up of trying to explain myself to idiots like you.

Oh, we're onto karma. Now I can't comment on that one, except to say I must've really screwed up in my last life, then.

Evil tests your faith @anonymous1120...evil will exploit your weaknesses and bring down your strengths to ruin your relationship with God. When evil succeeds you loose your belief.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX and there's nothing wrong with you not believing what I believe in. It would make the world a boring place if we were all the same. But it makes sense to me so I'm sticking with it.

I think I need to stay off this thread though now with my very extraordinarily beliefs.

I'll leave you to chat amongst yourself.

[quote priya38]@ChickenBLC

It was a fucking example I was giving. I never said they deserved it. Dismiss my original ideology. I'm fed up of trying to explain myself to idiots like you.

[/quote]
It was a vile example. You are blaming people for their disability.

You can call me an idiot but at least I'm not heartless.

@madhairday

I think we fundamentally differ in our view of where the universe began.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that the universe had a starting point, prior to which there was nothing, therefore 'god' provided the impetus for the universe to come into being.

I disagree.

I believe our universe is just one of an infinite number of universes, was created out of the implosion of a previous universe, our 'big bang' was just the latest in an infinite number of explosions and implosions, and that this 'cycle' has been happening in perpetuity

There's no need for a 'creator' being, because the universe we inhabit isn't the first, wont be the last, and wasn't 'created' out of nothingness in any case.

There is no need for 'first cause' if you believe that time is infinite.

@priya38

Your god supports you calling people idiots and saying displaying zero empathy or compassion does he?

If they are real and so is karma then you're in for a rough ride in your next life to make up for your attitude - good luck!

To me your just not intelligent enough, to understand, that this was just an example I was giving of how karma can work.

Top tip - next time you're insulting someone else's intelligence have a spellcheck. Otherwise using "your" instead of "you're" in the midst of calling other people idiots makes you look rather silly.

Your attitude has been negative and nasty in every post. You speak like a bully when other religious people have been perfectly pleasant to atheists on this thread, and vice versa.

Your earlier post was so awful it was removed, maybe have a think about whether that means you were in the wrong to say it.

@priya38

Can you please answer my question of whether you believe people who do not believe in karma are subject to it?

I'm not attempting to deny you your right to believe in it, I just don't see how that can coexist with the myriad of other belief systems that make no mention of the notion of 'karma'. They all profess to be the one 'true' religion, but they can't all simultaneously be true.

I'm just curious as to how people who believe in a particular system can reconcile that belief with contradictory notions adhered to by other people. Do you believe Christians, for argument's sake, are 'wrong' and their beliefs misplaced?

Fair enough, X, yes, we have different understandings of origins. But I still struggle to understand the evolution of humans to the highly intelligent and moral beings (in general) we are, with no objective morality and no author of that process at all. I also know many scientists who think the multiverse construct is a whole load of bunkum in itself, but I don't pretend to be expert in anything science-y; give me arts any day - one reason I suppose that I look on beauty and see the work of a creator God.

I think humans are the author of morality, hence why people who grow up aside from any knowledge of religion whatsoever do not lack for compassion, love etc

Even intelligent animals like dolphins and great apes display empathy, kindness, compassion etc, and I'm not going to listen to anyone telling me that dolphins believe in gods or have a religion.

You can absolutely feel the way you do OP and you’re very right to question the existence of a god.

I don’t believe in god or the like at all and haven’t for a long time. No wonder people question his existence when we live in a world where heinous crimes are committed against children, then you get paedophiles living until they’re 80’s.

Then when you think about Science OP. God can’t possibly exist because the earth is 4.5 billion years old.....

There’s a great book called the god delusion and he questions everything regarding religion. It’s very interesting from a very unbiased approach. Unless you call atheism biased views

You don't have to believe in God. If it doesn't help you to have a belief, then it's a bit pointless.

I have faith in God because if I Iost everything else, it's the one thing that can't be taken from me.

But my idea of God is very different from others idea - I've only really discovered this really from MN.

In believe God is all the good in the world. I don't belobe God is male or I will meet him once I'm dead, or that he literally created the earth. God is just omnipresent and has no control over things like a mouse feeling pain as it's pounced in by a cat, or whether the cat ounces at all. Or whether one human inflicts the unthinkable on another innocent human.

I can pray as much as I like and God won't or can't intervene to shift what will or won't happen. But God van give me peace and clarity to deal with the crap I'm presented with.

I've had my idea of God massively poo-pooed on MN before which, IMO, is just rude. It helps me, and doesn't affect anyone else. As I said if you don't wish to believe in God, and believing in God does not benefit you, then don't. But there is no need to be rude to anyone who does quietly have a belief. (I'm not aiming that at you OP, obviously)

I

Although saying that I do think the mind acts of religion are a positive and lots of lovely things are done in the name of religion.

I believe in God, loosely based on the God in the Gospels but mostly of my own interpretation of what I think I would like God to be. My belief gives me hope for life after death, and hope in other
ways - I suppose its more like believing in a Guardian Angel. My belief does nobody no harm and helps me feel better - if someone wants to argue with me and tell me I'm stupid then I think that would be pretty churlish of them. My belief helped me through many dark times and some people getting stress on the Internet isn't going to stop me. We've got enough real world stuff to argue about, just let people believe what they want if its a harmless belief.

But I'd never claim that you must have a religion to be moral. Christians believe we are made in God's image and thus made imbued with the knowledge of good and evil and with the general tendency towards good - more than a good that simply rests on evolutionary imperative to survive thus good for selfish gain, but good for fellow human out of a self sacrificial sense of community and compassion. Believing does not make someone good or bad, we all of us have the choice towards that. As I believe animals are part of God's creation I have no issue with the sense of altruism they show though that could be argued more as down to survival instinct due to their lack of ability to reason/lack of soul or however you frame it (though I'd argue otherwise, especially for dolphins :) )

I'm really surprised so many on this thread assume that belief in God means believing in an all controlling, powerful God... lots of people believe in a God that is more of a presence, a watcher that is not able to intervene with anything, and thats my argument to the whole "if there is a God why do children get cancer" argument... I don't believe God has any control over that in the first place.

There’s a great book called the god delusion and he questions everything regarding religion. It’s very interesting from a very unbiased approach. Unless you call atheism biased views

I'm sorry, but at the idea that Dawkins is unbiased in his views

TGD is a badly written and badly argued book. I've read it. I'd prefer Dawkins kept to his specialism of biology where his work is truly great, than try to aggressively argue theology of which he knows very little. His arguments are shoddy and at times ridiculous and even a load of atheists say this. Besides, he's incredibly misogynist.

I think it's just the case that as beings develop a degree of sentience, they are capable of recognising that mutual assistance is beneficial for all, so when they see another in need, the compulsion to help becomes overwhelming. You see it even with intra-species examples, not just humans protecting animals, but apes assisting small birds, kittens, young humans, dolphins assisting divers etc

There are examples of mutual assistance in animals that lack the same degree of individual capacity for thought, bees, ants etc, small mammals that live in communal groups, packs of dogs, but it's clear the reasons for that are not based on a logical thought process, but rather hormonal and instinctual factors.

While it's true that dogs will assist humans of their own volition, I don't know of a case whereby a colony of ants has gone out of their way to assist a human in distress, whereas dolphins are known to behave entirely altruistically to assist others, even beings of a completely different species.

It's all wonderful, but again, I don't see how any of it necessitates a god or a creator.

In terms of religions claiming hegemony of morality, I think that's something exclusive to some of the more dictatorial organised religions, and it's an aspect of them that I find particularly distasteful. I have been told, for example, by a priest that if I do not believe in god, then I could not possibly have loved the deceased relative he was busy eulogising. Now while I accept that not every adherent of that religion would say the same, I'm sure you can see why that is not only highly offensive, but also shrieks of rank hypocrisy when atheists like myself are constantly told we are being 'rude' or 'offensive' simply for asking questions and trying to reconcile contradictions.

I will admit that there is a part of my atheism that is driven by sheer outrage and indignation at what organised religions get up to, but that's by far and away a minor part of it compared to the myriad of things I simply can't reconcile with the supposed existence of deities. I concede that I'm inherently sceptical, but not to the point whereby I wouldn't be open to changing my view if faced with some sort of compelling argument or evidence. Unfortunately, I've yet to see any evidence whatsoever, and I accept that this is not required by people who profess 'faith', but more than that, I haven't encountered any compelling argument for the existence of deities either, at least, nothing that serves in anyway to reconcile my questions. It's invariably all 'hand-wavium', 'mysterious ways', 'beyond our ken' etc.

**I'm sorry, but at the idea that Dawkins is unbiased in his views grin

TGD is a badly written and badly argued book. I've read it. I'd prefer Dawkins kept to his specialism of biology where his work is truly great, than try to aggressively argue theology of which he knows very little. His arguments are shoddy and at times ridiculous and even a load of atheists say this. Besides, he's incredibly misogynist**

@Madhairday

Do you follow a religion or believe in god do you mind me asking?

I agree that was horribly offensive and well out of order of that priest and I'm so sorry you went through that at a time you needed simple compassion.

I agree that some forms of religion have acted in utterly hideous ways and believe they will be brought to justice.

Nothing wrong with being a sceptic, it's an honest position. I'm sceptical about a whole load of stuff too, but with my faith I have seen, experienced and studied too much to leave it behind in the face of any doubt (which of course I have from time to time and believe should be weighed and tested in the hope of honesty and integrity about my faith).

I agree about the altruism among animals and inter-species too, it's quite wonderful to see, isn't it. For humans at least (and possibly some species of animals) I think there is more to our altruism and compassion than a need based on our own survival and that of our own tribe and offspring. I think there is a depth of need at the heart of us to see others treated well, wherever they come from. Evolutionary altruism ends with what assists survival therefore leaves our concern for the elderly and disabled out in the cold somewhere as they would detract from rather than contribute to our survival (perhaps don't get me going on ableism in the face of Covid, that's another thread ) I know the argument is that we wouldn't want ourselves to be uncared for when sick and elderly and therefore we care for others but that again brings our compassion down to an act of selfishness and I think we are more than that. I think we have compassion because we are creatures imbued with compassion and created with love. I think we have moral instincts because we are imbued with moral absolutes, not because we are blindly programmed thus for survival. That seems a sadder story, to me, than one which gives us huge value as loved and purposed people, created and creative.

Dawkins doesn't 'argue theology', and he'd take you to task for suggesting it. He denies the existence of deities utterly, and therefore would argue that 'theology' is in itself utter nonsense and not worthy of argument.

You can say what you like about his skills as an author, but there's no denying that he asks some very simple questions that religions can not address satisfactorily, and that he also highlights some very obvious logical problems with the entire notion of deities themselves.

There are philosophers who do the same thing far more eloquently and elegantly, but the thrust of his points is much the same.

sorry, Dawkins would 'claim', not argue.

Hope that makes things a bit clearer.

Hi, Reedshoes. Yes I am a Christian. I believe in and worship God. Sorry, thought I'd been fairly open about that :)