I don’t think I believe in “God” anymore

[anonymous1120]

I feel really low today, my trigger was reading an online story about how Madeline’s body might be found in a few days as police think it’s 30 mins from hotel in a well. I’m sorry I stopped reading so details might not be fully accurate. My eldest daughter has just turned 4 and it’s really upset me thinking what Maddie might have gone through in her last moments.

I know some people will respond negatively to me and hence the name change. I’m really struggling to think how can God really exist and let awful and evil things happen all the time. My faith has really been tested over the years and I do not believe in God anymore.

Evil happens because there is God and Satan it's that simple except that if God was all that powerful then Satan wouldn’t exist would he?

I mean a 3rd of the angels fell at that time (according to the bible,( but if that was the case then why?

God had the power to prevent Satan from even ever existing and yet he didn’t.

Yet another argument for the fact he clearly doesn’t exist.

As for all this talk of evil cold hearted atheists, do you think that the priests who routinely raped and abused young children were good-hearted then just because they believed in a God? Or the church leaders who covered it up?

What about the church leaders and “devout” types who shout down anyone who believes in something they don’t or who accuse those Christians who accept everyone regardless of their belief and lifestyle choice?

Personally if I believed that there was a heaven and a Hell then I know what my idea of Hell would look like, it would be a place full of these self righteous judgemental preachy types. No thanks.

I have never in my life encountered such judgement as I have from the church. And the sad thing is that most people of a faith don’t think like that, but as with everything it’s usually those with the most abhorrent views who shout the loudest and taint the reality for everyone else.

[quote silverstrawberry]@mumoblue
I'm not saying evil =atheist
I don't know you
[/quote]
So what did you mean by

if we all skip along to being evil and cold hearted atheists

That's sad and I'm sorry you feel low. But surely you already knew bad stuff happens? It's one of the many reasons I don't believe in god myself, the others being that I tried believing before and he ignored me, and, you know, it's just silly.

Raised a Catholic. I don’t attend church regularly.
However, I definitely believe in God

I have never in my life encountered such judgement as I have from the church. And the sad thing is that most people of a faith don’t think like that, but as with everything it’s usually those with the most abhorrent views who shout the loudest and taint the reality for everyone else.

I'm so sorry to hear that. The church has indeed been involved in some repugnant stuff through the ages and it saddens me that people still feel judged by rather than welcomed by the church. My experience of church is mostly good, it's a body of flawed people who mess up but in general try to live out Jesus' model of life and find massive fulfilment, purpose and hope in following Jesus. But there is no excuse that you have been made to feel that way. I am sorry.

I am an atheist so obviously don't follow any religion. However when it comes to the question of why would a good and just God allow suffering, I find the Jehovah's Witness answer interesting - they believe the Devil is in charge not God (one proof of this being that the Devil tries to bribe Jesus by offering him land when he spends his 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness - making the point thst how could he offer something that wasn't his). I do find this the only slightly satisfactory answer, that suffering is the devil's work. No God would allow innocent children to suffer.

(Apologies to any Witnesses reading as I know I've mangled the explanation)

Was watching Macbeth on BBC4 a couple of nights ago. When Macduff's children are all killed his words are "Did heaven look on / And would not take their part?"

Most people concentrate on 'where is God when it's bad'.

Bad and good happens to both those of faith and those not of faith.

Many sacred texts illuminate that as follower you can expect more trouble in this world and not less.

Faith or religion is not insurance against bad things happening, neither is Atheism. Faith is focused on how life is dealt with in an imperfect world, full of imperfect people.

If one thinks of God in terms of 'God should not let bad things happen', it's not God you are looking for it's Father Christmas.

I was raised religious, then I read the satanic bible and got into satanism.
I haven’t burned into flames, I’m sure you will be fine if you don’t believe in god.

@silverstrawberry

I'm not saying evil =atheist

Own your words. You said:

"if we all skip along to being evil and cold hearted atheists"

Isn't part of being a Christian saying sorry when you've said or done something unkind?

I also note you've chosen to come back on that in defence of a comment but not offer words of empathy, sympathy or condolence for the people who have shared stories of difficult losses in the meantime.

Again, not a very kind and loving attitude.

I would never, ever say that someone lost a child because of 'God's plan', LastTrainEast, and am so sorry people have said something so crass, insensitive and just plain wrong. :(

I understand what many of you are saying. It is difficult to reconcile the God of love Christians talk about with the evil and pain we see all around us. But without that depth of love I believe we would not be able to experience those depths of pain, and vice versa, because we are creatures made for more than mere existence and survival in an indifferent accidental universe. There's a reason we know pain is wrong - because we know things are skewed, not right, and shouldn't be, there's a twist in our guts at evil because we are made for good.

I know it seems bunkum to many, I get it. I have engaged with and struggled with and wrestled with faith for many many years now, including deconstructing and reconstructing during the course of a theology degree. But it remains, for me, the only thing that makes sense of us, our existence, our consciousness, of beauty, of morality, of justice - that deep seated sense of justice so many of us carry. On this thread many rightly cry out in great outrage at atrocities committed by the church and by humanity in general, because we are created to run from injustice and see justice done. I believe that one day justice will be done for all those who have been made to suffer at the hands of others in any way, that all the deeds done for evil will be exposed to all and ultimate justice will be done. As a Christian it is one of the hopes I carry - not just for 'my place in heaven' but for justice for all of humanity through the ages.

I do not construct these hopes and dreams out of nothing in an attempt to cope with a life that can be difficult. I believe Christianity is a robust, intelligent position, a response to an invitation, a trust based on a living hope that carries me through great darkness again and again. It is based on a central event in history: the resurrection of Jesus, which points to a great hope that death is not the end and that we can live life grabbing onto this hope and allowing it to inform our choices and behaviour in this life in order to make things better. I believe all this while recognising that the church through history has often been deplorable and simply not followed the teaching of Jesus in any way whatsoever, and that we still see echoes of that today where there is abuse and cover-ups. I am no great fan of institutional church but I am a fan of the earliest church and how they went for radical living out of their faith in a hostile society. I'd highly recommend this book for more on the church as it was supposed to be and still can be:

www.amazon.co.uk/Kingdom-Fools-Unlikely-Early-Church-ebook/dp/B007VDHD8Q/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=nick+page&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1592307775&sr=8-6

@Madhairday

Thank you

@Madhairday Yes, that's how I understand it, too. I've held onto my faith, because I know that Jesus was with me as a child when I was being abused. I also know that the only person to blame was my F, because if it hadn't been for him, none of it would have happened.

I think my DM has more difficulty with reconciling what happened with her faith than my DSis and I do. I get that, too.

From an atheist to a believer @Madhairday you sound lovely and I totally respect your view on it.

Refreshing for someone of faith to agree it's flippant and cruel to minimise things like the loss of a child or a rape as "just" gods plan. 

@silverstrawberry you could learn from this poster how to be gracious and kind in faith. If you do believe then that's what your own god would want you to do.

I'm sure you're meant to spread god's love, not spread your own negativity and judgement. "Only god can judge" and all that, after all.

I find the Jehovah's Witness answer interesting - they believe the Devil is in charge not God

I'm Anglican and also believe that Satan is in charge of the current world. I'm working towards making it change.

Could God change that now? Yep, no problem at all. But I don't think that I'd like to live in a world where my God was a dictator

Thank you @backseatcookers. It really grieves me when Christians try to minimise the suffering of others by using shallow platitudes or trying to explain it away as something in a grand plan or in order to inspire others. When you are suffering, you do not want to be an instrument of use, you simply want relief from that suffering. My understanding of scripture and the Christian faith does not point me towards the idea that God somehow sits in the sky and deals out suffering in an arbitrary and calculating manner, but that instead God sits within the suffering and wraps arms of love around the sufferer, offering glimpses of hope amidst it all, based on the hope found in Jesus. That's the hope I have found and want to talk about and share from my own pain.

I can’t believe anyone still believes in God these days. It’s madness.

I am not religious but still sort of believe in some sort of divinity or spiritual things.
Just because you have read about horrible things that happened to one child and decided to disbelieve, then you had no faith or belief in the first place.
I have read lots of things as I grew up, one was about god not helping those who suffered while those who believed was tormented by others.
As I said, I'm not religious, or don't even have religion. But I never can say god don't exist. And my opinion won't change just because of the well know horrible situations. There's so many in the world.

I’m an atheist, have been since teenage. I’m now 42 and have been through the loss of a child, my mothers cancer and my own chronic illness. I have never felt moved to pray so I guess there is no tiny spark of faith anywhere in me. I’m happy with my life. I would like to think I’m a kind, loving and moral person who helps others and is kind to people and animals. I tend to use “do as you would be done by” as my guiding principal. I think the “purpose” of life is to reproduce your DNA (as with all living creatures).

There is no god shaped hole in my life. I’m perfectly content. When I die I will live in briefly one the memories of my nearest and dearest and then I will fade. I’m ok with that.

Welcome to the world of critical thinking and intelligent thought!

LastTrainEast God made man in his own image .God loves the Sinner not the Sin! We all have free will remember ,and that is the essential point here .Christian B who is accused of her murder(never a more inappropriate name!) chose to harm Maddie .We as people are in charge of our own destiny ,and turn to God for spiritual help in everyday life through our thoughts and prayers .CB was a long way from God and killed a young child due to his own evil thoughts .God is not to blame in any way at all!

I am an atheist and don't 'angrily blame God for letting people die'. People die because humans are mortal and my acceptance of this fact enables me to live my life realistically, feeling that this is it. Believing in a 'better ever after' means two things 1) We fail to take care of what we've got here, believing that it's just temporary and disposable 2) We live our lives in a perpetual state of 'I'll be happy when.....' and fail to take responsibility for our actions. I would suggest that I have come to terms with my existential concerns far more than someone who cannot accept that death is final. Eternal life? No thank you. As for free will, religion seems to go out of its way to suppress free will and impose prescriptive ways of behaving. Religious scripture is written by men in the interest of maintaining male power and privilege. Many of the disgraceful and disempowering attitiudes towards females, such as menstruation being 'dirty' have their roots in religious doctrine. I accept that religion provides comfort for many people but some of the worst hypocrites in life claim to be deeply religious. Often it is mere window dressing for some of the vilest deeds human beings to do to other human beings. I don't think it is any coincidence that religion has such a strong foothold in the most socially diseased country in the world, the USA - it's a reaction formation defence to the truth of what people really are; fallible, flawed and deeply contradictory.

bluevioletcrimsonsky well you're right that bad things don't prove that a god doesn't exist. They just prove that if one does exist he is evil.

Don't forget that some of the bad things we're referring to were deliberately set up by god. He may not have created murder, but he created diseases that kill innocent children. Including a delightful little parasite that blinds them first.

Then again if you believe the bible is true he also has a history of murdering children directly in large numbers when angry.

dottiedodah Seriously ask your priest about this idea that god isn't capable of knowing what's going on.

And while you're at it ask him about the moral position of claiming a man murdered a child simply because you heard it on Mumsnet.

The police have no evidence the man was involved at all and the Mcanns themselves have just made a press release stating that they had NOT had a letter from the police saying that they had proof their child was dead and that the "unsubstantiated stories" had "caused unnecessary anxiety to friends and family and once again disrupted our lives".

Does that prove they are evil, or more human?
Anyway I am not qualified to comment on these threads in depth, as I said, I am not religious at all.