... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

In fact I'll just repeat this paragraph of it, which works just as well for any of the privileges (or advantages) that society accords:

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

There is of course nothing inherently advantageous in a pale skin tone.

It just happens our generation has inherited a globe from racists who worked very hard to create comparative privileges specifically for people with a pale skin tone.

The legacy of that is still significant in many parts of the world.

As said frequently above, other axes along which one can have greater or less privilege are available.

Does it make sense to be both priviliged and under priviliged? I think not. The whole notion of casting a very diverse population as 'priviliged' by the virtue of skin colour just doesnt make sense. Where does one have to be on the skin colour spectrum to go from the privileged group to the non privileged group or can you just self identity into either group?

If you lived in the Arab Emirates would there be White privilege necessarily or as someone else said Japan.

Why do you "think not," Flapjack?

I am disabled.
I am white.
I am a woman.
I have a very low income.
I have moderately secure housing.
I have a reasonable education.
I live in the 21st century with antibiotics and X-rays and cancer drugs.

Do you really struggle with the idea that some of these things advantage me compared to some people, and some of them disadvantage me compared to some people?

I don't understand why folk are hung up on "privilege" as if it's a single thing, and as if it's absolute rather than merely a comparison.

@HeyMaCorona

Because some white people don't feel very privileged. White privilege is the domain of the middle classes.

A homeless white man does not experience white privilege.

Many travellers doen't feel they experience white privilege

A white slave does not experience white privilege

A woman being beaten daily by her partner does not experience white privilege

An abused kid does not feel white privilege

White privilege is the domain of the woke and middle classes

they all do see the privilege of being white. They do. They are less likely to be stopped, if they are stopped they are less likely to end up dead as a result of it.

@carycry you realise the celts were from India so they colonised the UK first... Stop trying to kid yourself that we are different or better than the US. We have the same structural issues they do, we just hide it better. It’s totally a toxic environment for all, it’s not right or fair that my DS is taught that dark skin = bad and that is what is taught. We went to a birthday party last year where the entertainer took an instant dislike to the only black child there. Was shouting and downright nasty to him and was praising the white children for the same things the other boy was doing. I took my son away and sat down with the other boy, neither needs to learn that message. Thankfully one of the dads gave him a right dressing down, I bet if it had been the boys mother or father though he’d have made snide comments about them being aggressive. Now tell me white privilege doesn’t exist?
How about knowing that your child isn’t automatically assumed to be stupid (and marked down) or placed into lower sets based on their race? It happens, there is a wealth of research based about that. No one is saying being born a white WC boy is easy.

Some people think that if you crunch the numbers, you can't really justify the idea of white privilege as such. Larry Elder is an example of that POV. There is a significant black conservative position that generally doesn't like that particular model for thinking about race.

The other thing to remember is that white privilege is a term that is meant to describe the different outcomes seen around black and white populations. It also tends to imply a cause or mechanism - white privilege is a cause of different outcomes. But people can see the difference in outcomes and not agree that they are best explained through the idea of white privilege - it obscures the real causes, or tends to distort the analysis of the disparity, or groups together things that have different causes.

what do you understand "dismantle society" to mean?

My understanding is that it means taking down and re building structures in society that are seen as being inherently, in this case, racist. Exactly what that looks like it how it's achieved I don't know. This is my understanding which of course might be wrong.

See, this is why I think some people reject the notion of white privilege - the unknown is scary and it's very difficult to visualise what life would look like without those racist structures on which the world as we all know it is built.

IMO, many people (not necessarily you, Hearhooves, just generally) are concerned about acknowledging white privilege because they don't see all of the issues for themselves that they're being told exist for BAME people - they are merely being told about them second hand. So I think many have a fear that they genuinely don't know how deep this structural racism goes as they can't see it for themselves, and therefore they don't know the extent to which society's structures might have to be dismantled to get to a point where BAME people aren't oppressed.

And there are probably other people who do acknowledge society's past and recognise how far the systemic oppression probably go, and therefore are scared that they might lose everything they know because they do see that oppression of others had a hand in raising them up. So they do acknowledge their white privilege in their head (whether consciously or not) but they don't feel they can afford to take the risk of admitting it in case they screwing themselves over in the process.

I think it's hard to fathom the dismantling of oppressive structures in a world that was built on oppression in many forms. I sometimes wonder if the people who are oppressed in other ways and have already noticed that oppression is everywhere are more scared because they see how much would have to change to eradicate it.

LonginesPrime

Ok, so if we dismantle all structures and start again how will you guard against another sector of society from being disadvantaged by the new structures?

Society isn't equal, that much is certain.

I do truly wonder how much of white privilege isn't actually class privilege or wealth privilege. I also wonder how you create structures within society that are different to what we currently have?

Does it make sense to be both priviliged and under priviliged?

Yes, of course - you can be privileged in one sense and under-privileged in another sense because it's a relational thing. One isn't privileged, full stop. One is privileged in relation to something else.

I am heavy compared to a baby, but not heavy compared to an elephant. I am both heavy and not heavy simultaneously, depending on what I'm being compared to.

Exactly, LonginesPrime.

I described multiple axes above, but even just taking it along a single axis:

I am richer and thus more financially privileged than some of my family in southern Africa.
I am less rich and thus less financially privileged than Boris Johnston.

Exactly. A poor white disabled man is less privileged than a middle class white disabled man but probably has a more advantageous life than a poor black disabled man on account of having to face less obstacles because of his race.

Privilege isn’t an absolute term. It’s supposed to be a relative term. You can have a shockingly underprivileged life of hardship and toil and abuse but still experience white privilege. It’s not supposed to be taken literally. I think if people swapped the word privilege for advantage it might help. All of us experience advantages in life different ways. Being white is one of them. Being rich is another. Being able bodied is another. Being exceptionally beautiful is another. Advantage isn’t the same as living the Life O’Reilly

Or even personally can play a huge part like the popular dc at school

Privilege isn’t an absolute term. It’s supposed to be a relative term. You can have a shockingly underprivileged life of hardship and toil and abuse but still experience white privilege. It’s not supposed to be taken literally.

Trouble is many of its loudest proponents speak about it in an almost literal manner. It’s an unnecessarily goady and confrontational term which would be much better replaced with something like “reduced chance of encountering racial prejudice/stereotyping and increased social ease due to being a member of the majority racial group in this particular nation”.
That’s a lot better. But that won’t work as a #hashtag.

*@carycry you realise the celts were from India so they colonised the UK first *if you are going there then we all bloody originated in Africa! Fgs.

I am just pointing out that we are a predominantly white country and a historically white is the majority and yes there is an inherent advantage to be born in the majority. I do not deny that.

But if you are in Japan it is an advantage to be Japanese. While people are treated differently there. They are nice to you but you can only get so far in the career ladder if you try to stay there. There is also a lot of racism towards Brazilians there.

Globally It isn’t just about white privilege. We just think of it it that way because we are in a predominantly white country,

And yes I realise South Africa is a bit different. I didn’t actually mention Africa in my post.

it is no wonder the term getrs people's backs up so in that sense it never aids race relations - it damages them. So many white people have such worse lives than some non white people in the UK that if you did a scale or list of advantages you would find them below some non white people. Telling them they have masses of advantages in their cases is not true and is bound to make race relations much worse.

If we could just follow the Equality Act 2010 and not discriminate on grounds of race or sex that would be a good start instead.

If you have to explain it to people its probably because its a shit stupid term.

I agree with your post of earlier Xenia, most of the private schools in the area are full of ethnic minority students. It is not as clear cut as it first appears

'white privilege' is discussed by white middle class families who talk about supporting BLM and talking about how awful it is that other people 'don't get it', 'can't understand or embrace it' and quite simply are less educated and more savage than them, and must all be racist.

Meanwhile, the homeless white man addicted to crack on the street couldn't give a fuck about 'white privilege' and certainly doesn't feel privileged thank you very much.

The little white kid being beaten up by his heroin addicted parents has never heard of white privilege. He has no debt to pay regarding his ancestors. He doesn't give a shit about the colour of someone's skin. But he doesn't feel privileged and why should he. Who cares if apparantly he is. He isn't feeling it thanks.

White privilege is a term for the privileged to show how woke and wonderful they are and non racist and inclusive and thoughtful of black issues they are.

Other people are a bit busy not feeling very privileged thanks, and telling them they are is a bit of a snack in the face actually.

*smack in the face

Just to play devil’s advocate, is it wrong to make an analogy that identifies a potential problem with white privilege. All things being equal, white people are advantaged, and therefore as a class, white people are privileged.

As for men and women, on average, men are taller than woman. As a class, men are taller than women and have a height advantage. However, you would never say that Ronnie Corbett was tall, especially compared to Miranda Hart.

As a class, men are taller than women and have a height advantage. However, you would never say that Ronnie Corbett was tall, especially compared to Miranda Hart.

The equivalent of a height advantage in the context of structural racism would be being free from racial oppression (i.e. enjoying white privilege). White people are generally free from racial oppression and enjoy white privilege.

But yes, it makes sense that there will be some individual outliers.

Some BAME people report 'passing' as white (often in the context of white people not realising and saying racist things in their company), so I guess they would be BAME people who enjoy white privilege in some (but usually not all) contexts.

And then there are some people who are perceived as BAME and who experience racism despite being white.

So yes, not every individual in a class enjoys that privilege. But given that the BAME people who are regarded as white still get hurt by racism and the white people who are regarded as BAME also get hurt by it, it still seems that being a white person recognised as a white person carries a distinct advantage in the context of racism.

Even if you accept the idea of privilege as relational and multifaceted and think it represents a real thing, it's pretty useless because you can really never apply it to real life situations. There are just too many different variables, from sex to class to education to intelligence to having had a loving family life, to level of health...

It also doesn't tell us much that is useful. So we see a disparity between races on something, say educational attainment. But it doesn't really tell us the mechanisms that led to that, and there are multiple possibilities. Nor does it suggest what we should do about it. It can't even tell us if the disparity is direct related or correlated with some other factor. Saying, oh, they achieve higher levels of education because of privilege doesn't tell us anything new.

I don't know. Is it really that important for a poor white disabled person to acknowledge their privilege? If you are worrying constantly about how to feed your kids, they are looked at as council house scum because of where they happen to live, their clothes in bits because of lack of money, you don't know if you'll make the rent this month and you've just gotten a big gas bill that you don't know how you are going to pay but instead of worrying about that you are supposed to sit and be grateful that at least you have white privilege?

I mean don't be racist that goes without saying but I don't really see the point of making poor people living shitty lives feel like they have to be grateful that at least they have white privilege.

@Donkeytail I'm sure you'll be flamed for that comment but what you have said is very sensible.