... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

@TabbyMumz

"Look at the poster who is trying to saying the glass ceiling doesn’t exist. That it’s women’s fault they aren’t getting places. It wouldn’t surprise me if she was a man or a woman who got her job via nepotism as they are so intent to try to prove that life is a even playing field." Do you really think if a woman works in a good job, she got it through nepotism? That's really really sad, do you live in the 1950's or something? Goodness me. I work in a massive organisation and I can absolutely say hand on heart if women want to apply for and get good jobs, they can.

No i don’t. I don’t however believe that women don’t realise that women do have to prove themselves more than men unless they haven’t experienced it themselves and one of the reasons they may not have experienced it is due to nepotism. I work in a big organisation and women do not make it to the most senior positions. There is one woman in a very senior position as opposed to the 10 men at the same level as her. She is one of the worst for making women prove themselves.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras apparently their is research to prove that black women are paid more on average than black men. I haven’t seen this research so I honestly don’t know but on the basis that that is true it would seem white women do experience more privilege over black men. I would say the Central Park incident would seek to prove that point.

not all disabilities are physical, not all disadvantages faced by disabled people are due to building design but are due to work practices, attitudes, transport, medical appointments, abuse etc etc etc

Hearhooves, that sounds like a lot of complex factors affecting disabled people.

I should imagine some of those factors might be quite difficult to define too as many of them are very subtle and/or have a cumulative effect on a person's wellbeing over time. It sounds quite complicated.

It must also be quite challenging to have a non-physical disability, especially when around non-disabled people who might not be able to recognise it and might not take it seriously.

I guess non-disabled people wouldn't see all the little ways that an non-physical disability affects someone as they can't experience it for themselves. That must be really frustrating, especially if others don't acknowledge a disabled person's difficulties or blame it on other factors.

It must hard too, because one doesn't want to keep going on and on about one's difficulties, but it's easy for non-disabled people to forget that a disabled person has these additional challenges. I mean, even if a non-disabled person is living in poverty and has a challenging life, they still won't understand the specific ways in which a disabled person experiences difficulties, will they? All they can know for sure is that they don't have those specific difficulties.

It's clear from what you've said that disability discrimination wouldn't be solved by simply putting up a ramp. I agree that it's a much more complex, systemic issue.

[quote NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite]**@Buttercup77
"If a white man with a traditionally British name and a black man with a traditionally Nigerian name sent off the identical same CV to 1000 companies looking to hire someone on the spot (the only thing that differed on the top of the CV was the name - everything else was identical) - if white privilege didn’t exist, you’d expect it to be a coin flip and the white man be offered the job 50% of the time and the black man be offered the job 50% of the time. But of course in reality this is not the case. Not even close to a 50/50 split."
Do you have links to evidence supporting those conclusions? How often is the black Nigerian offered the interview in these circumstances?

What about situations where people who are not white have traditionally english names such as Malaysians, Chinese?[/quote]
Yeah the same thing happens with names from all ethnic backgrounds. Traditional British names tend to receive more callbacks than African, Asian, Muslim names etc... which is why a lot of people with ethic names tend to change or anglicise their name in competitive industries. It’s a very famous study that has been repeated several times over and even formed an entire chapter in Freakonomics. Here are the links to a few of the studies and articles: The very first link below is from independent fact checking site Full Fact who uphold this. Traditional British names 74% more likely in fact to receive a positive response:

fullfact.org/economy/job-applicants-ethnic-minority-sounding-names-are-less-likely-be-called-interview/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46927417

www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/four-ways-your-name-can-affect-your-job-prospects/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/17/minority-ethnic-britons-face-shocking-job-discrimination

Not all white people have "white privilege" Some ethnic minorities are white, imagine how they feel after a lifetime of racism, abuse and ethnic cleansing, to be deemed "white privilege"
Then imagine how they feel knowing that this racism will never stop as it's accepted by society and has been for over a thousand years.
Imagine what they think about the term "white Privilege".

[quote SoVeryLost]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras apparently their is research to prove that black women are paid more on average than black men. I haven’t seen this research so I honestly don’t know but on the basis that that is true it would seem white women do experience more privilege over black men. I would say the Central Park incident would seek to prove that point.[/quote]
Why would the Central Park incident prove anything about workplace discrimination?

We know that women, particularly of child bearing age, face discrimination in the workplace, overlooked for promotion etc so are you saying that race cancels out that discrimination?

@LonginesPrime

not all disabilities are physical, not all disadvantages faced by disabled people are due to building design but are due to work practices, attitudes, transport, medical appointments, abuse etc etc etc

Hearhooves, that sounds like a lot of complex factors affecting disabled people.

I should imagine some of those factors might be quite difficult to define too as many of them are very subtle and/or have a cumulative effect on a person's wellbeing over time. It sounds quite complicated.

It must also be quite challenging to have a non-physical disability, especially when around non-disabled people who might not be able to recognise it and might not take it seriously.

I guess non-disabled people wouldn't see all the little ways that an non-physical disability affects someone as they can't experience it for themselves. That must be really frustrating, especially if others don't acknowledge a disabled person's difficulties or blame it on other factors.

It must hard too, because one doesn't want to keep going on and on about one's difficulties, but it's easy for non-disabled people to forget that a disabled person has these additional challenges. I mean, even if a non-disabled person is living in poverty and has a challenging life, they still won't understand the specific ways in which a disabled person experiences difficulties, will they? All they can know for sure is that they don't have those specific difficulties.

It's clear from what you've said that disability discrimination wouldn't be solved by simply putting up a ramp. I agree that it's a much more complex, systemic issue.

Exactly. So, should we demand that all able bodied people are now responsible for addressing the privilege that being able bodied affords them?

@NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite

Quite the opposite - in many large companies they have diversity quotas to fill, and are incredibly nervous of any allegations of discrimination and therefore jobs will end up being offered to the person in the minority group to avoid this. Positive discrimination is incredibly common

@QuoteAlittleshortforaspacepooper

The thing about being white and working class, is that, as long as your children remain upwardly mobile, eventually (possibly by the next generation) they will attain middle-class status.

Exactly. So, should we demand that all able bodied people are now responsible for addressing the privilege that being able bodied affords them?

Well, I think it would help for non-disabled people to acknowledge the absence of challenge that they experience in specific areas that disadvantage disabled people, don't you?

Until it's the norm for non-disabled people to recognise the advantages that they benefit from by virtue of their not being disabled, I can't see how navigating a non-disabled world is going to become any easier for disabled people.

Me, I don’t believe in white privilege, I believe that people of all nations have a certain amount of privilege, the old saying it’s not what you know, it’s how you know, Family and friends connections help greatly, where you are from, what education you’ve had, how rich your parents and family are,how you talk, how you look,Etc etc this applies to everyone not matter the colour of your skin,
I was born in a council house in the fifties, outside toilet, tin bath in front of the fire, no money, etc etc , but it’s all ok because I’m white, there is somebody worse of than me so I’m privileged, A bit of a race to the bottom, If a non white person was interviewing for job in a manly non white work force, 1 white, 4 non whites, the white person didn’t get the job is that because of black privilege?

@LonginesPrime

Exactly. So, should we demand that all able bodied people are now responsible for addressing the privilege that being able bodied affords them?

Well, I think it would help for non-disabled people to acknowledge the absence of challenge that they experience in specific areas that disadvantage disabled people, don't you?

Until it's the norm for non-disabled people to recognise the advantages that they benefit from by virtue of their not being disabled, I can't see how navigating a non-disabled world is going to become any easier for disabled people.

But white people aren't being asked to just acknowledge their white privilege are they? They are being told that they must dismantle society because it has been created to benefit them. So, able bodied people should dismantle the society that they have created that benefits them by the same token, no?

[quote strivingtosucceed]@QuoteAlittleshortforaspacepooper

The thing about being white and working class, is that, as long as your children remain upwardly mobile, eventually (possibly by the next generation) they will attain middle-class status.[/quote]
How much social mobility is there in the UK? I'd be interested to hear how many working class children actually rise up to middle class. Of course, as previous posters have said, in some circles they will never be accepted as middle class no matter what they achieve.

There’s so many different types of privilege (class, attractiveness, male height, sex, able-bodidness) Race is just one of them. Nobody struggles to understand that being able to walk instead of having a disability is an advantage or that being attractive might open up a few more doors for you than someone who is less attractive. Race is just another of those advantages in this country.

I think the problem is the word “privilege” it really should be called advantage. People think of privilege in absolute terms instead of relative. Having a racial privilege is not the same thing as having a privileged life. So you get people arguing that they haven’t had a privileged life because they grew up in extreme poverty. It’s true they haven’t had a privileged life. Not at all. But they have experienced white privilege because the black person growing up in identical poverty most likely had even harder circumstances to navigate through. Just like both of them would experience an able-bodied privilege in comparison to a third person who grew up in the same poverty but also had a severe disability.

Privilege and privileged life are not the same thing. The former is talking about an advantage whereas the latter is talking about absolutes. Taller men on average have more advantages than a very short men with regards to societal perception, work and dating opportunities. That’s not the same as saying tall men have a privileged life. Only that they have advantage in the demographic of height solely.

And then of course intersectionality occurs so it’s very rare that two people will be identical on all areas apart from their race. It’s just talking about a really generalised term on average. I think advantage would be more helpful as privilege gets taken too literally.

Buttercup77 Very good comment, it’s the term white privilege that winds people up, because it’s just not true in so many white peoples life’s

But white people aren't being asked to just acknowledge their white privilege are they? They are being told that they must dismantle society because it has been created to benefit them

Hearhooves, what do you understand "dismantle society" to mean?

This doesn’t work, America? Caribbean? The indigenous people aren’t white over in those countries yet still white privilege still occurs there

I understand you point Soverylost but in a way you are illustrating how we are always incorrectly comparing ourselves to the likes of America. We are not like America at all.

We are a European country with an indigenous Caucasian population.
We can not compare ourselves as such. Our white privilege is more based on us being indigenous.

In “new worlds” as it were. It is more about who conquered/ colonized it first. I e the US was colonized by white Europeans first.

Yes, not fair to compare the US and UK and plentyo f white UK people have suffered discrimination. I live in a minority white London borough and a lot of white have left it being part of "white flight" which I have not done. However it does mean I live amongst very privileged rich Indians, many of whom are definitely middle class, lots of privately educated non whites, Asian doctors etc and it is not going to go down well with the white people left here to say they have "privilege" (or indeed in areas like Sunderland where my mother was from where most people are white and there is little privilege/ advantage and indeed in some areas it is the Asian shop keepers who are top of the tree not the local unemployed whites).

If we can all just work towards treating everyone fairly and that includes no positive discrimination either then people will get along better.

what do you understand "dismantle society" to mean?

My understanding is that it means taking down and re building structures in society that are seen as being inherently, in this case, racist. Exactly what that looks like it how it's achieved I don't know. This is my understanding which of course might be wrong.

Personsally, i think the problem is with the word 'privilege. It is often used in a sneery way by 'educated, woke, or middle class' people at the expense of those who probably dont experience any socioeconomic advantage to being born white in a predominately white country. Continuing to use the word privilege outside academic debate is devicive

Stamford hill. You have put it better and more succinctly than I managed. It’s really is just about being in the majority.

White privilege is only prevalent where the majority is white. If you are in Japan, for example, it doesn’t exist.
We are just so preoccupied with ourselves in europe and the US that we seem to think it applies to the rest of the world.

StamfordHill and Carycy, my family are white South Africans.

Would you care to repeat your posts with a straight face?

Because some white people don't feel very privileged. White privilege is the domain of the middle classes.

A homeless white man does not experience white privilege.

Many travellers doen't feel they experience white privilege

A white slave does not experience white privilege

A woman being beaten daily by her partner does not experience white privilege

An abused kid does not feel white privilege

White privilege is the domain of the woke and middle classes

And I agree with so many other posters: the OP could not have been clearer.

Yet so many people simply refuse to engage with it.