... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

Perhaps the concept of privilege is applied in too broad a context.
There are loads of different advantages and disadvantages in life.
To pick a minor example. You might get the paths smoothed for you if you are the prettiest girl in your town. But in - I dunno, Hollywood- that doesnt exist for you. All the girls are pretty. Now it's about age, for example.

Society is made up of many sub societies. Each of them have their own hierarchies. It's possible to live a life in your own bubble - I hate that phrase, its minimising of ordinary human concerns - but live in a subsection where ethnicity isnt a concern, because everyone is the same in that respect.

I was going to continue my line of thought by saying not everyone engages with the state, but of course that's not true, we all do. So the conclusion to that is that the state must be colourblind, sexblind, classblind, everything blind. No privilege. Because the state is for all of us.

But in ordinary everyday life, outwiyh the state, the sub societies in which most people live. It's not helping to impose the concept of white privilege on travellers, or white people in Tokyo, or in a small
Village in, say, the northern Irish countryside. . These people live on their own societies, with their own histories and bitterness and fault lines. Interaction with the broader society may be minimal.
To you, the fault line isnt skin colour. You have your own concerns. It's not relevant in the community in which you find yourself.

it's pretty useless because you can really never apply it to real life situations. There are just too many different variables

The aim isn't to map privilege onto real life situations so that each person's privilege points across multiple factors can be totted up to see who's the most oppressed.

It's more a tool to help the dominant class in a given scenario recognise their possible blind spots and understand that their experience of the world might not be shared by all. Which is important in helping to address some of the issues that might be holding others back.

you are supposed to sit and be grateful that at least you have white privilege?

No, because it's not something to be grateful for (unless you're Louis CK).

It's not that white people are supposed to be happy about BAME people being racially oppressed, nor grateful that it isn't happening to them. It's about acknowledging that BAME people have some struggles that white people will never experience, and being sensitive to those challenges and how they affect people.

If I say 'Jane's having a really hard time at the moment, she's caring for her dying father', it doesn't mean I think that Andy, who's a single parent who's just lost his job, must be having a great time. I'm just talking about Jane. Acknowledging Jane's specific difficulties doesn't diminish Andy's suffering in any way.

I mean don't be racist that goes without saying but I don't really see the point of making poor people living shitty lives feel like they have to be grateful that at least they have white privilege

Actually, I think the real purpose of this kind of privilege narrative is to make sure this unfortunate white person never sees his own problems as connected to the problems of the poor black person, prompting them to form some kind of political coalition.

Admitting privilege in any context can be very difficult as it does indicate you are undeserving.

Eg Jack Whitehall the comedian. Went to a private school, dad a very famous agent who represented many top entertainers over the decades. Both now do shows together. But Whitehall completely denies any privilege as a result and said in one interview that just because his dad "knew the two Ronnies" doesn't mean he had an advantage. Totally disingenuous comment but he was loathe to admit any privilege. Similarly James Blunt blew up when an MP pointed out rich kids were dominating the arts. He called the MP a "gimp" if I remember correctly before the MP responded by saying that spending money on musical instruments and not food was a privilege for some.

So not entirely surprised as this attitude cuts across race, class and wealth.

I think the real purpose of this kind of privilege narrative is to make sure this unfortunate white person never sees his own problems as connected to the problems of the poor black person, prompting them to form some kind of political coalition.

Eh? I'd have thought the opposite, if understood correctly.

Understanding axes of privilege and that we're both lacking in financial privilege, is what will help us form a political coalition. Understanding that there may differences in some of the challenges we'll face while doing so, should increase our effectiveness as allies.

It isn't inherently divisive to understand that different axes of privilege exist. The understanding can be a positive step in working together well. Of course, differences in privilege can be taken and used divisively – but so can many things.

I think the idea of privilege can take time to bed in and not see it as a personal attack. Dh works harder than anyone I know - always has done from school days. Saying to him that it was part privilege and luck that made him successful was hard initially for him to accept and process but the reality is that although he did the hard work doors were opened for him by virtue of his white male privilege and acknowledging that makes him a better person and a better boss.

The problem is a lack of nuance. There are people (of varying political opinions) using it to mean that every white person is more privileged, in an absolute sense, than every black person. That's what people react against. When what it should mean is that whatever other disadvantages a white person faces in life, their skin colour isn't one of them.

The general connotations of the word 'privilege' don't help here, I think. Really, it shouldn't be a privilege not to be discriminated against. It should be a right and an expectation, for everyone.

I understand the concept but I don't think it is helpful. For anyone.

Everyone is born into whatever situation they land with, none of us have a choice in where we are born, and you are either born lucky, not lucky or somewhere in between. It will always be this way because humans are naturally very competitive and every human culture sets up some form of hierarchy - it is global and cross cultural, so therefore can be assumed to be inherent to human behaviour.

If we accept we are always going to have hierarchies, we accept we will also have 'privilege' and 'no privilege' within that, but our job is to keep the hierarchies as fair as possible. I think that is what the white privilege argument is aiming for - to create fairness within our hierarchies so I get that. But I do not think race is a helpful lens overall.

Our society has made huge progress in racial inequality, it is entrenched in our laws - there can be no greater commitment to racial equality. But this sense that white people should feel guilty is just not sustainable for a cohesive society, and that relates back to the point about 'luck' and us not choosing how and where we are born. I am white, I was born into a modicum of privilege (above average earning parents who were together, good education) but that doesn't mean I feel like I should give it all up and live in some enforced poverty. We have to understand human nature - the competitiveness to survive.

What I do think though is that everyone should be given the opportunity to thrive, that is what a good society does. I actually think we do do that to a certain extent, we do have a good education system in normal times, poor people can get to university now, and employers have to abide by laws when it comes to recruitment, most big organisations have a diversity policy (that's a whole other discussion) etc. I am not saying it is perfect but there is progress.

But what the 'white privilege' argument does is separate people in some sort of Oppression Olympics, it insinuates BAME people have no chance, when I just don't think that is true here anymore. What makes me think that is sort of an unrecognised truth is that when I listen to the BLM arguments, I don't hear any actual changes being demanded to the system as it is. No specific things within the systems that are preventing BAME people progressing?

I think anyone can have a chance in this country, and the things most likely to scupper chances for individuals are their family backgrounds and peer group cultures, not the system that we have.

Also, the term itself is inherently racist.

What does white mean?
What does black mean?

@GazeboParty

I think the idea of privilege can take time to bed in and not see it as a personal attack. Dh works harder than anyone I know - always has done from school days. Saying to him that it was part privilege and luck that made him successful was hard initially for him to accept and process but the reality is that although he did the hard work doors were opened for him by virtue of his white male privilege and acknowledging that makes him a better person and a better boss.

I’ll agree with your statement. It’s about acknowledging the difficulties you didn’t face.

The attribution bias is common in all humans - not just white people:

We attribute our successes to ourselves

We attribute our failures to others

It's how we roll, and expecting that to change is unrealistic

I think there is white privilege but I think there is an issue when middle class white men (largely) who have many of the trappings associated with lecture others. Also it can comes across as hypocrisy as many of them won't be working, living & sending their kids to school in a highly diverse environment.

It's like my neighbour who put up a BLM poster but 3 months ago was twitching the curtains & asking about burglaries because a black man wearing a hood had the cheek to walk down the street.

@hamstersarse

I understand the concept but I don't think it is helpful. For anyone.

Everyone is born into whatever situation they land with, none of us have a choice in where we are born, and you are either born lucky, not lucky or somewhere in between. It will always be this way because humans are naturally very competitive and every human culture sets up some form of hierarchy - it is global and cross cultural, so therefore can be assumed to be inherent to human behaviour.

If we accept we are always going to have hierarchies, we accept we will also have 'privilege' and 'no privilege' within that, but our job is to keep the hierarchies as fair as possible. I think that is what the white privilege argument is aiming for - to create fairness within our hierarchies so I get that. But I do not think race is a helpful lens overall.

Our society has made huge progress in racial inequality, it is entrenched in our laws - there can be no greater commitment to racial equality. But this sense that white people should feel guilty is just not sustainable for a cohesive society, and that relates back to the point about 'luck' and us not choosing how and where we are born. I am white, I was born into a modicum of privilege (above average earning parents who were together, good education) but that doesn't mean I feel like I should give it all up and live in some enforced poverty. We have to understand human nature - the competitiveness to survive.

What I do think though is that everyone should be given the opportunity to thrive, that is what a good society does. I actually think we do do that to a certain extent, we do have a good education system in normal times, poor people can get to university now, and employers have to abide by laws when it comes to recruitment, most big organisations have a diversity policy (that's a whole other discussion) etc. I am not saying it is perfect but there is progress.

But what the 'white privilege' argument does is separate people in some sort of Oppression Olympics, it insinuates BAME people have no chance, when I just don't think that is true here anymore. What makes me think that is sort of an unrecognised truth is that when I listen to the BLM arguments, I don't hear any actual changes being demanded to the system as it is. No specific things within the systems that are preventing BAME people progressing?

I think anyone can have a chance in this country, and the things most likely to scupper chances for individuals are their family backgrounds and peer group cultures, not the system that we have.

Laws aren’t making a difference. The police still stop black men more than any other race on average. White privilege doesn’t insinuate that BAME people don’t have a chance to succeed. It quite rightly points out that they have to work harder. That people’s unconscious bias often associates negative thoughts about a person due to their colour. It’s not racist to point that out. It is racist to pretend it doesn’t happen.

Because asking people who are distinctly lacking in privilege to admit their privilege is kinda perverse

It's notable that the people that easiest get their round the concept are people who have benefited from economic privilege

Economic inequality is the biggest divider of people and frequently equates to poor outcomes but it's best people concentrate on anything else in case they get ideas above their station

White privilege doesn’t insinuate that BAME people don’t have a chance to succeed. It quite rightly points out that they have to work harder. That people’s unconscious bias often associates negative thoughts about a person due to their colour.
It’s not racist to point that out. It is racist to pretend it doesn’t happen

But where is the evidence that this is definitely RACE and not socioeconomic status?

That is why people say it is divisive and not fair on poor white people to have this lens.
You need definitive evidence that this is race related and not something else for this to be a successful campaign.

I agree there is white privilege. I think some people struggle to distinguish it when in life there are so many other factors that also have an impact - family circumstances, wealth, education etc.

Also sometimes the effect can be indirect. Eg. Its easy to say "the black lady didnt get the job because she's got poorer qualifications" and not have the nouse to question why there's often such a discrepancy in qualifications etc and link it back to the effect of decades of casual racism.

This does not excuse it - more needs to be done to educate our kids on the cumulative effect of racism over centuries.

this sense that white people should feel guilty is just not sustainable for a cohesive society

I am white, I was born into a modicum of privilege (above average earning parents who were together, good education) but that doesn't mean I feel like I should give it all up and live in some enforced poverty

it insinuates BAME people have no chance, when I just don't think that is true here anymore

I understand the concept

No, I don't think you do, hanstersarse.

One of the consequences of white privilege is not seeing race an as issue because it isn't an issue to you. For example:

I do not think race is a helpful lens overall

it is entrenched in our laws - there can be no greater commitment to racial equality

I think anyone can have a chance in this country, and the things most likely to scupper chances for individuals are their family backgrounds and peer group cultures, not the system that we have

@hamstersarse

White privilege doesn’t insinuate that BAME people don’t have a chance to succeed. It quite rightly points out that they have to work harder. That people’s unconscious bias often associates negative thoughts about a person due to their colour. It’s not racist to point that out. It is racist to pretend it doesn’t happen

But where is the evidence that this is definitely RACE and not socioeconomic status?

That is why people say it is divisive and not fair on poor white people to have this lens.
You need definitive evidence that this is race related and not something else for this to be a successful campaign.

Here’s a starting place: www.theguardian.com/education/2010/apr/04/sats-marking-race-stereotypes Teachers routinely mark down BAME students.

I think its largely because of greater social mobility amongst migrant communities. A lot of people simply don’t understand that a lot of migrants are one or two classes above their economic status in the new country.

My family is a brilliant example. My parents worked unskilled jobs (menial office work, factories etc). I was raised going to the ballet and went to an elite private school. I married someone from a similar family. We’re both professionals with a lot of cultural capital and reasonable means. Our children are at an elite school and we drive luxury cars. This is common amongst many of our family and friends. In contrast how many white children of factory workers are driving flashy cars to their flashy corporate jobs?

A lot of ignorant people see someone who once lived on the same council estate as them driving around in a jag and assume they’re privileged but are too blind to see that their privilege is a class privilege (which is of course the most meaningful in Britain). They then delude themselves into thinking that white people are victims of positive discrimination policies and that foreigners have come and taken all the good jobs (as if they’d ever be given a good job!).

It's notable that the people that easiest get their round the concept are people who have benefited from economic privilege

That's a huge generalisation.

I think I got my head around white privilege because I can temporarily identify out of some of ways I might be disadvantaged by concealing some things about myself. To an extent, I can slip in and out of having certain types of privilege, so I've seen the advantages of being part of the dominant class in action.

But you can't just identify out of your skin colour.

I don't think the family structures help in some cases. You will be disadvantaged if you have dc when you are very young and have not worked or with an unreliable partner

@Anamechanged

Because asking people who are distinctly lacking in privilege to admit their privilege is kinda perverse

It's notable that the people that easiest get their round the concept are people who have benefited from economic privilege

Economic inequality is the biggest divider of people and frequently equates to poor outcomes but it's best people concentrate on anything else in case they get ideas above their station

I agree, especially with the last paragraph.

When people talk about issues faced by BAME people so much of it really boils down to poverty or low socioeconomic status.

People talk about stop and search but the policy was changed wasn't it, certainly in London. From memory it was after the murder of Stephen Lawrence, and when the Met was found to be institutionally racist, but then it was charged again following calls from the black community when so many young black men were being stabbed and killed.

We have a gang problem in the area where I live now. We are on a tube line and it seems that various different gangs commute here, commit a series of street robberies, usually from school children at knife point, and then escape via the tube. Schools regularly issue warnings, and at times have asked parents to collect students from school because police have alerted them to a particular threat.

How are the police supposed to stop this?

I was hearing about Minnesota this morning and that they've voted to disband the police - goodness knows what this will look like out there or what will happen but I'm guessing they'll realise the benefit of having a police force once they don't have one.

How are issues such as gangs, knife crimes, absent fathers caused by white privilege? Surely these issues are the cause of much more disadvantage towards the black community? If they are the result of white privilege I hope someone can explain it.

Good points above particularly 7days. People are often in very self contained groups and yet others assume we are all global citizens rich enough to fly abroad or interested in abroad or even that we have enough money for the bus fare into Newcastle upon Tyne when many people don't.

Requiring white people to admit they have some massive huge advantage over others particularly when they live in places in the UK which are almost 100% white (UK is only 3% black for a start and only 12% non white) does not help race relations. However I am sure all of us know all kinds of things from being pretty or male (or sometimes female) give people particular advantages in certain situations. It is not hard to agree that that is so as it is a fact.

I suppose a computer could produce a calculation where you feed in data about your class, status, income, colour, weight, accent, schooling, country etc etc etc and then could give us each a value for a particular town as to where we stand in terms of advantage to others in our particular London borough. eg mine is minority white and I don't thikn the whites are the better off advantaged ones as many of those kind left here - white flight- for other richer posher places - country side or inner London posher boroughs so you get a lot of white working class in the minority who are white where I live and a large number of better off corner shop owners, Indian doctors and dentists, Ugandan Asians but also some less well off Eastern Europeans as rents out here are less than inner London.

Imo as well there is huge issue with drugs & gang related crime that results in black boys killing each however drug use amongst the middle classes is seen as harmless...

People talk about stop and search but the policy was changed wasn't it, certainly in London

The policy might have changed but racial profiling still happens in practice. It's still a problem for black people. But many white people obviously wouldn't be aware as they're not stopped for being black.

How are issues such as gangs, knife crimes, absent fathers caused by white privilege?

They're not caused by white privilege - they result from a complex range of factors that can be traced back to structural racial oppression. White privilege is merely what prevents that same structural oppression disadvantaging white people.

That's not to say that white people aren't disadvantaged by structural oppression - obviously many of them are. But the fact that white people often suffer similar consequences as BAME people doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist or that racism isn't a cause of disadvantage for BAME people - it merely means there are other factors that can cause those disadvantages in addition to race.

A way to look at is if white people, who aren't subject to racial oppression, have it so bad, imagine how challenging it must be for BAME people where those issues are compounded with racism. Which is where intersectionality comes in.