... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

Maybe a bit of a stretch to say extroverts have an advantage though, it's a pretty even spread I'd say

You don't sound like an introvert because you wouldn't say that if you were one.

Even if you are, again it's about what the majority (within the disadvantaged) face. It's not easy to see that from the advantaged pov. There are always exceptions.

I find it interesting how many people like to argue abound the term how many people are trying to actually make a difference? Have you done the implicit bias test offered by Harvard University. I have, I don’t have any bias between white and black people. I have a slight bias towards gay men, etc... I challenge myself constantly about the decisions I make especially if it affects people.
Why are people caught up about the term? If it causes people to robustly challenge their own actions and thoughts it can only result in a better world for everyone.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Oh I’m not dismissing it. It is a thing but on a glance if you see a white man in a suit you don’t know if he is WC or MC. You know from a glance that a black man is black. Hence some of the privileges which people are unwilling to accept that they have. There are things that happen to BAME people purely because of the colour of their skin, a more apt comparison would be traditionally good looking privilege and even that only goes so far.

Sorry, I don't understand the point about noticing that a black man is black. That's only an issue if the man is treated unfavourably because he's black, surely?

A person in a wheelchair will be seen to be in a wheelchair. Does that mean that all able bodied people are discriminating against disabled people then, simply by observing something?

As people we are all different and we also have many similarities. Surely it's how we behave with regards those differences that is important?

I have a disability. Every single day I'm aware that my life is more difficult because of it. That the world is built for the able bodied. My job prospects are worse, certainly my health care is worse. Should I now accuse every able bodied person of being ableist?

If their actions and words make them such, why not? The world is built for the able bodied, something I didn’t have to consider until I was in my late teens and made a friend who was wheelchair bound. Now it’s something that I consider most days, I don’t ignore someone who is clearly disabled but I do see people treat people with contempt that is most likely due to their disabilities. For example on the tube pushing past someone with a wheelchair to make sure they get their space (don’t get me wrong their are some rude people who will attempt to push past most people). So yes people are treated unfavourably due to outward disabilities and due to race.

SoVeryLost

But "white privilege" isn't just about holding white people to account, individually, for their words and actions, as you're suggesting about the able bodied.

It's about blaming white people, as a whole, for how black people experience society.

So, if that's the case then all able bodied person are responsible for the privilege that they have over disabled people and are responsible for changing the able bodied world.

Taking it to the extreme, are black able bodied people responsible now for doing their bit to change things for disabled people? I'm sure many people will argue that black people have enough to contend with which is kind of the point isn't it? Many people have things that they are struggling with and it's very difficult to see past your own struggles in order to help others who may not appear to be having it as tough as you. I cannot see how anger can make any of this better.

report from the National Education Opportunity Network (NEON) released In 2019 found that the white working class are the group least likely to go to university, after the Traveller community. More than half of UK universities have a student population in which the proportion of white people from low-income families is less than 5 per cent.

Again though - they are more likely to come from single parent families, may have parents with a lower opinion of education. More likely to have children young etc. Perhaps less motivated to work hard for an education.

Not necessarily middle class privilege. Maybe just your own poor life choices.

We need to take responsibility for ourselves more.

I think some people find it hard to consider white privilege because firstly, I think it is sometimes different to think in terms of 'classes' (not class). And secondly, we do have to recognise that many white people do not feel privileged.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras why have you brought anger into this? Every white person can make a difference. Pretending that WC people don’t have an affect on BAME people because they are disadvantaged is ridiculous.

I think the idea is to that you can aknowledge difference and to pretend eg someone isnt in a wheel chair, or to say that you dont see colour isnt helpful.

Using the wheelchair example, rather than saying well "i dont see them as a wheelchair user" (which is an understandable sentiment), but you can aknowledge them as both a good friend etc and aknowledge they are also in a wheelchair and they might have specific needs or experiences due to that. So rather than saying you dont see them as a wheelchair user, then you can start doing things like being mindful that when you meet up making sure the place is properly accessible, and that if they are struggling woth something you listen

I used to do some work in equality provision and the following company example that my colleague dealt with had stuck with me

The company stated they didnt need any adjustments as they were all for equality and had a ramp and toilet so why wouldnt a disabled person work there? However ignorrring that the building itself wasnt accessible by public transport, and the wider issues such as the equality with educations etc, there was lots of issues within the building. Eg they had a ramp that meant any employee was coming in via the bins, couldnt navigate through the office due to clutter in the building, would be dependent on people to open certain doors

Its really easy for us to make an easy fix such as put a ramp on feel your accessible but actually the infrastructure is slanted massively against certain groups.

In the same way biased recruiters are likely to only be part of the problem for women in stem, just because they might hire them doesnt mean prior to application that women might be subtly deterred simply in that they might feel unwelcome, might have an education system stacked against them etc

[quote SoVeryLost]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras why have you brought anger into this? Every white person can make a difference. Pretending that WC people don’t have an affect on BAME people because they are disadvantaged is ridiculous.[/quote]
Because of the scenes happening in the US and the UK right now - you don't think that's anger?

Thank you OP very good points. White privilege needs to be talked about.

@Covidkate

I think the idea is to that you can aknowledge difference and to pretend eg someone isnt in a wheel chair, or to say that you dont see colour isnt helpful.

Using the wheelchair example, rather than saying well "i dont see them as a wheelchair user" (which is an understandable sentiment), but you can aknowledge them as both a good friend etc and aknowledge they are also in a wheelchair and they might have specific needs or experiences due to that. So rather than saying you dont see them as a wheelchair user, then you can start doing things like being mindful that when you meet up making sure the place is properly accessible, and that if they are struggling woth something you listen

I used to do some work in equality provision and the following company example that my colleague dealt with had stuck with me

The company stated they didnt need any adjustments as they were all for equality and had a ramp and toilet so why wouldnt a disabled person work there? However ignorrring that the building itself wasnt accessible by public transport, and the wider issues such as the equality with educations etc, there was lots of issues within the building. Eg they had a ramp that meant any employee was coming in via the bins, couldnt navigate through the office due to clutter in the building, would be dependent on people to open certain doors

Its really easy for us to make an easy fix such as put a ramp on feel your accessible but actually the infrastructure is slanted massively against certain groups.

In the same way biased recruiters are likely to only be part of the problem for women in stem, just because they might hire them doesnt mean prior to application that women might be subtly deterred simply in that they might feel unwelcome, might have an education system stacked against them etc

Right. So how do you change society then to make sure that every bias, every potential barrier is removed for every group? In fact that isn't even what's being argued right now is it? What's being argued is that black people are the most discriminated group in society and that it is the fault of all white people.

Take the statue example - how many statues are there of disabled people?

"Look at the poster who is trying to saying the glass ceiling doesn’t exist. That it’s women’s fault they aren’t getting places. It wouldn’t surprise me if she was a man or a woman who got her job via nepotism as they are so intent to try to prove that life is a even playing field."
Do you really think if a woman works in a good job, she got it through nepotism? That's really really sad, do you live in the 1950's or something? Goodness me. I work in a massive organisation and I can absolutely say hand on heart if women want to apply for and get good jobs, they can.

I work in a massive organisation

What’s the split at board level?

It reminds me a bit of those women's lib and also socialism meetings of the 1960s where people could spend the hour's meeting talking about terminology and get nothing done. .

best to act - I try never to let any racism go by without comment, even against taxi drivers (when safe to do so).

However I agree we might all see a woman or an obese person or someone with a very large set of breasts or a small nose or a disabled person or whatever and not discriminrate despite noticing the difference. There will always be differences - some people are much prettier than others (whether black or white), some are brighter etc etc and some discrimination is lawful and sensible - eg we do not want a surgeon cutting our heart open if he or she has a mental disability and IQ of 80 and that so they are not always simple issues.

So, if that's the case then all able bodied person are responsible for the privilege that they have over disabled people and are responsible for changing the able bodied world

Well, yes.

When people are designing a building for an able-bodied world, of course it's their responsibility to remember that not everyone is able-bodied and to take the impact of people's disabilities into account.

I think that there is a great deal of bs over this 'privilege' nonsense at the moment. It presupposes that pretty much everyone, in every walk of life is sexist, racist, misogynistic etc. It just is not true, at least in this country. The biggest privlege in this country is wealth. Rich people, be they black, white, mauve, green, purple, peach, tan, grey or orange have a distinct advantage over everyone else. I am frankly sick to the back teeth about people harping on about my 'white privilege'. My parents are from two different continents, my mother has such a mixed ancestry that if all of my family gathered together we could probably complete a Pantone color chart. But I look white enough and speak English well enough for people to assume that I am a WASP. There is prejudice in the world, real prejudice, without people searching for and creating divisions that just don't exist.

100% female on the board. SMT is 80% female

How many on the board in this startling company?

I mean my companies are both 100% for board and SMT. However the boards are one and two respectively.

I think that there is a great deal of bs over this 'privilege' nonsense at the moment. It presupposes that pretty much everyone, in every walk of life is sexist, racist, misogynistic etc

No it doesn't - it presupposes that many people are oppressed by sexism, racism, misogyny, etc and that the people who aren't perceived as being in those oppressed classes benefit from not being oppressed in those specific ways.

It doesn't mean a person who has white privilege is racist, it means they have unknowingly benefitted from a system which was, in some ways at least, designed with people like them in mind.

@LonginesPrime

So, if that's the case then all able bodied person are responsible for the privilege that they have over disabled people and are responsible for changing the able bodied world

Well, yes.

When people are designing a building for an able-bodied world, of course it's their responsibility to remember that not everyone is able-bodied and to take the impact of people's disabilities into account.

Well, that isn't holding all able bodied people responsible for the privilege that they have over disabled people is it?

As white people we can't just say "well, government need to design out institutional racism, it's their responsibility". Just saying that the only disadvantage that people with a disability face is actually quite ableist - not all disabilities are physical, not all disadvantages faced by disabled people are due to building design but are due to work practices, attitudes, transport, medical appointments, abuse etc etc etc

@LonginesPrime

I think that there is a great deal of bs over this 'privilege' nonsense at the moment. It presupposes that pretty much everyone, in every walk of life is sexist, racist, misogynistic etc

No it doesn't - it presupposes that many people are oppressed by sexism, racism, misogyny, etc and that the people who aren't perceived as being in those oppressed classes benefit from not being oppressed in those specific ways.

It doesn't mean a person who has white privilege is racist, it means they have unknowingly benefitted from a system which was, in some ways at least, designed with people like them in mind.

And no doubt suffered for other disadvantages along the way where other people have gained advantage.

Does a white woman, doing the same job as a black man have more or less privilege/advantage?