... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

It's jargony and quite a new expression so people who don't spend their time reading about this kind of thing don't understand it.
Especially the least privileged among the white privileged.

@Bluemoooon

What i originally said until you decided you know better what I think than I do *@LonginesPrime* Using these sweeping comments can annoy people greatly however true YOU believe them to be

8Bluemoon, yes, technically what I meant by "white people" in that sentence was "white people who deny that structural racism exists".

But I figured that white people who acknowledge that structural racism exists won't be offended because they will understand the point, so the only white people who'd be offended by my generalisation would be the ones I was referring to anyway.

By being offended by what I wrote, you've self-selected into that group. The other white people will understand, so don't worry about them.

I'm not offended - I totally acknowledge white privelege and , my point is, don't make generalisations and sweeping statements about people if you want to get them on side. This is happening all over - people jumping up and down and demanding stuff and telling others they are wrong and must now do whatever it is the jumping up and downers want blah blah blah - just like you did by rewriting my original simple phrase, turning me into a racist and you into some blessed dogooder.

Telling fat people to eat less doesn't work, telling rich people to share their money doesn't work, telling businesses to employ more black people doesn't work, That's my point. You just piss people off.
People switch off and stop listening.
But you go ahead - keep banging your drum keep accusing people of their white privilege, keep switching their comments so you can accuse them of racism - just keep it up and make any changes in society take twice as long as they might have done without stirrers like you.

What actually works then? You aren’t providing any alternatives and saying stop moaning does what exactly? It hasn’t made life better for black people has it?

Especially the least privileged among the white privileged

Right, but the least privileged also have the least power to change anything. Yes, it helps if they are aware and obviously there are ways for everyone to make a difference. I'm not saying their actions don't matter - their voices should be of equal importance. In reality, they're not, though.

IMO, it's more important that people with more power, usually those with intersecting privileges (financial, education, class, etc), understand the concepts of dominant class privilege and structural oppression, as they're the ones who benefit from maintaining the status quo and they're the ones who ultimately have the real power make change. They would need to accept the reality of the situation and acknowledge that they benefit from their privilege and that the world isn't one big meritocracy first, though, otherwise they will keep maintaining that they're doing enough already.

Raising awareness of white privilege shouldn't be about shitting on white poor people - it seems from some of the comments on this (and various) threads that this is how it's being used at the moment,

It's hard for everyone whey they first realise they benefit from privilege, especially when they've been told this rather than coming to the conclusion naturally. Some people find it easier to accept than others for all sorts of reasons. And obviously the fact that many people now broadcast all their undeveloped thoughts out loud on Twitter rather than processing things in private can be counterproductive.

But just because some people are using the term to beat others with to express their own anger or frustration, it doesn't mean the term 'white privilege' isn't fit for purpose. People say all sorts of things they don't fully understand, but that doesn't mean that we should dumb everything down because arseholes on Twitter are misusing it to carry out their arseholery.

If a teenager in school throws a chair across the classroom and breaks something, do we ban chairs? No, because when used appropriately, chairs are actually incredibly useful. It was the behaviour that was the problem, not the chair.

@Bluemoooon

What i originally said until you decided you know better what I think than I do *@LonginesPrime* Using these sweeping comments can annoy people greatly however true YOU believe them to be

8Bluemoon, yes, technically what I meant by "white people" in that sentence was "white people who deny that structural racism exists".

But I figured that white people who acknowledge that structural racism exists won't be offended because they will understand the point, so the only white people who'd be offended by my generalisation would be the ones I was referring to anyway.

By being offended by what I wrote, you've self-selected into that group. The other white people will understand, so don't worry about them.

I'm not offended - I totally acknowledge white privelege and , my point is, don't make generalisations and sweeping statements about people if you want to get them on side. This is happening all over - people jumping up and down and demanding stuff and telling others they are wrong and must now do whatever it is the jumping up and downers want blah blah blah - just like you did by rewriting my original simple phrase, turning me into a racist and you into some blessed dogooder.

Telling fat people to eat less doesn't work, telling rich people to share their money doesn't work, telling businesses to employ more black people doesn't work, That's my point. You just piss people off.
People switch off and stop listening.
But you go ahead - keep banging your drum keep accusing people of their white privilege, keep switching their comments so you can accuse them of racism - just keep it up and make any changes in society take twice as long as they might have done without stirrers like you.

What (would) work according to you?

Also you realize that’s it’s because asking doesn’t work that people/governments have bypassed asking and resorted to more concrete actions.

Governments have literally stopped “asking” rich people to “share their money” a long time ago, they just directly tax them accordingly.

Businesses who do not meet their quotas in terms of diversity are fined actually, and scrutinized and in recent years thanks to social media quite often publically shamed.

I don’t think anyone genuinely believe asking is the way to go, you don’t look your rapist in the eye and say “mind not raping me?” and expect him to listen. You can’t really negotiate or ask for people to stop oppressing you, you either have to shame them at a big enough scale that they will (unwillingly) relinquish their power or you have to scare/convince them into relinquishing their power. The later one being the harder because if a talk about white privileges is hard to process for a fair amount of White people imagine talking them into relinquishing said privileges.

The later one being the harder because if a talk about white privileges is hard to process for a fair amount of White people imagine talking them into relinquishing said privileges.

Because for a good many people their "white privilege" might very well be the only privilege that they have.

You could pick any "privilege" in isolation and instruct the possessors of said privilege to relinquish it. What exactly will that achieve?

Following your argument, I should be able to tell any able bodied person to check their privilege and expect them to relinquish it. How's that going to.pan out do you think? It's simply meaningless in my opinion.

Longines is right - this is more about wealthy people in positions of power who, yes, are more likely to be white. They do have privilege, over all of us.

Me, as a disabled, working class woman who is also white has practically no privilege at all.

Interestingly, last night after you telling me to check my privilege I did some reading on line. One site had a privilege calculator where you score each potential privilege - my score came out as non privileged. So, I did "check my privilege" - apparently I don't have any.

One site had a privilege calculator where you score each potential privilege

Fucking hell, I see why people are confused now! This is one of the ways that the term privilege is misused - this mad notion of 'aggregate privilege' causes a lot of unnecessary confusion, and it damages all oppressed classes.

IMO, the first thing that needs to be done to tackle structural oppression is for companies like Buzzfeed to take down these shitty clickbait surveys and stop spreading dangerous misinformation to the masses. I'll be writing to them and others.

In the current climate, it's amazing that they've chosen to profit from the existence of structural racism in such an overt way.

Is it really the case when companies have diversity quota's? I'm not a lesbian, I'm white and I'm actually a real women so possibly I'm now disadvantaged in applying for a job.

I've also worked in predominantly Asian work places and their was certainly discrimination against white applicants.

Exactly and I have read about the British not being employed in factories where there was a high amount of non - English speakers.

I don't think labels are helpful and just cause resentment.

Yes, most people in the UK use common sense and are all on the same page on this. And of course you can do a calculation and plenty of the white working class disabled male Asian doctors who live near me. It does not require a degree to work out who has advantages and who does not and where you find yourself on a scale in particularly countries - it is just basic common sense.

As for how you take money and power from those who have it that is a political issue. I support capitalism but would like a small state and much lower taxes and more personal freedoms. Others might prefer what China did in the cultural revolution to ensure the rich class eg sons of doctors were forced to work in the country in labour camps or sweep the streets. It didn't really work very well

I'm certainly not privileged. Yes I have my own house and car, but It wasn't handed to my by t he house and car fairies. I had to work for it.
I wasn't born with a diamond spoon in my mouth.
Leaving school I failed many interviews ect. I didn't walk ou t of the school gates and have a manager waiting with a contract to give me a guaranteed life long job.

@Awwlookatmybabyspider

I'm certainly not privileged. Yes I have my own house and car, but It wasn't handed to my by t he house and car fairies. I had to work for it. I wasn't born with a diamond spoon in my mouth. Leaving school I failed many interviews ect. I didn't walk ou t of the school gates and have a manager waiting with a contract to give me a guaranteed life long job.

Hmm, welcome to most people’s life?

You could say those things about pretty much everyone.

Would you say that Male privileges aren’t a thing just because most of them weren’t privileged enough to be gifted a house, car and a job or? Has sexism failed to exist and I didn’t notice? Or surely you understand that being privileged and being rich at birth is mutually exclusive?

I can see how it could be galling for a white WC woman to be told to 'check their privilege' by a well off, MC black man (or similar scenarios). Yes the white woman has white privilege but the black man has male privilege and possibly financial or class too.

The problem is the only privilege that people are being told to 'check' right now is their race privilege. I think everyone should be checking their privilege in all areas in order to aim for understanding and a more equal society where people are aware of and empathetic to the nuances of life and different struggles people face based on their different personal situations.

@Awwlookatmybabyspider

I'm certainly not privileged. Yes I have my own house and car, but It wasn't handed to my by t he house and car fairies. I had to work for it. I wasn't born with a diamond spoon in my mouth. Leaving school I failed many interviews ect. I didn't walk ou t of the school gates and have a manager waiting with a contract to give me a guaranteed life long job.

Are you judged negatively by society on account of having been born white?

@Awwlookatmybabyspider white privilege doesn't mean you are privileged in every area of your life, it simply means you don't have to worry about being discriminated against because of your skin colour. So yes you are privileged in that sense.

@confusedbymyheritage

I can see how it could be galling for a white WC woman to be told to 'check their privilege' by a well off, MC black man (or similar scenarios). Yes the white woman has white privilege but the black man has male privilege and possibly financial or class too.

The problem is the only privilege that people are being told to 'check' right now is their race privilege. I think everyone should be checking their privilege in all areas in order to aim for understanding and a more equal society where people are aware of and empathetic to the nuances of life and different struggles people face based on their different personal situations.

I don’t think that’s true, I think people have been told to check their privileges in plenty of areas of life, we tell men all the time to check their privileges, when disable people advocate for themselves they are also telling us to check our privileges as able-bodied people, gay people are telling straight people to check their privileges all the time, you are hearing about white privileges right now because Racism has been brought to the forefront due to the death of George Floyd but people have been telling others to check their privileges for centuries.

I have always been made aware of both my disadvantages and privileges, I think knowing what could potentially hold you back and put you a step forward from others depending on your specific characteristics and life story is extremely important

We for the most part all have privileges and we absolutely ALL need to be conscious of them and what it means for people who don’t hold the privileges we have because it is our role as the privileged one in those groups to mend the gap between us and the one with less privileges in those areas.

That being said @confusedbymyheritage I do agree that if people did check their privileges in all areas and took the time to understand them and what it means and work on those gaps the world would be a better and more united place.

Unfortunately, as shown by some people on this thread, the mention of privileges (whether it be white, male, straight, being non-disable etc...) tends to automatically irk people and most people aren’t willing (conveniently or avoidingly) to actually discuss nor identify their privileges.

Which is interesting because most people who were absolutely outraged at the mention of White privileges and identifying the existence of privileges regarding race, had no problem identifying others as privileged in areas they felt personally under privileged (usually wealth and social class) and using them as an excuse as to why they couldn’t be possibly privileged.

So it’s interesting that most people are able to identify the existence of privileges in others but struggle to identify the presence of privileges within themselves.

Most of the religions including catholicism have always had this principle as have all decent people - put yourselves in the shoes of others, don't rush to judgment etc Queen Victoria was once eating dinner with a rather rough workman type. He started picking up his meat in his hands. You know what she did? She did the same as he did to make him feel comfortable.

My only advice to my twins on going to university was "be kind". That is just about all we need in all this competitive who is worse off exercise that is this privilege stuff. Lots of people have difficult lives even if they don't appear to do so - so just treat everyone well and in fact if you look at how certain people treat those serving them rather than a big boss who might help them you can pretty much get the measure of someone.

It is not kind to tell decent people they are racist when they aren't and it is not kind to discriminate on grounds of race or gender etc.

@Xenia

Most of the religions including catholicism have always had this principle as have all decent people - put yourselves in the shoes of others, don't rush to judgment etc Queen Victoria was once eating dinner with a rather rough workman type. He started picking up his meat in his hands. You know what she did? She did the same as he did to make him feel comfortable.

My only advice to my twins on going to university was "be kind". That is just about all we need in all this competitive who is worse off exercise that is this privilege stuff. Lots of people have difficult lives even if they don't appear to do so - so just treat everyone well and in fact if you look at how certain people treat those serving them rather than a big boss who might help them you can pretty much get the measure of someone.

It is not kind to tell decent people they are racist when they aren't and it is not kind to discriminate on grounds of race or gender etc.

Telling someone they have White privileges isn’t telling them they are racist.

I have privileges due to the fact that I am not disable, that doesn’t mean I am Ableist, it simply mean I am not limited by a disability.

What makes someone a racist, ableist, homophobe etc... is what they DO (or don’t do) with their privileges, not the fact that they have privileges.

If you have privileges (white or otherwise) and are using them to make the world a better place and for positive changes for those who don’t then people would struggle to begrudge you for your privileges. Nobody picks their privileges, it’s just the way it is. Privileges happen to be problematic when people use their privileges to step on and discriminate against others (be it gays, people of color, disable etc...)

The current system we live in is unfair. Because the people in power aren’t making full use of their privileges to help and end the gaps but are instead, using them to maintain and/or exacerbate the divide.

When people point out privileges they (well most anyway) aren’t holding an individual responsible for the system flaws but they are saying “hey, you have privileges who mean your voice matters more, could you please use it to help me and my cause?” We know Josephine down the street can’t end racism, sexism or homophobia, but she can participate in their death by using the privileges she has (whatever they are) to make her voice and opinion heard and make a change.

When people say “please, check your privileges” what they really mean is “ Hey, not sure if you realized and according to your situation it might not really feel like it but the government care about you in ways they don’t really about me around those issues (race, sexuality, sex etc...), mind taking a minute informing yourself about the things you could maybe do to help because I genuinely believe that if you were made aware of how much your voice currently matters on those issues, you would really grasp the length of the issues with the current system and the importance of your words and the need we have for you to speak up against the current system and be on our side with this, I genuinely think you could make a difference, at your scale, that would mean a great deal for people like me if only you took a minute to inform yourself on the differences in treatments of individuals based on different factors and how you could help change that.”

That’s all people are asking “inform yourself, see what you can do and please if you can, do it. Your participation in those actions is important due to how the system has placed on you on those issues.”

It’s not a “stop being a racist” unless the person is actually being racist and or prejudiced.

What difference?

For example, I already vote (and volunteer for in elections) for a woman of colour. My kids are mixed race, so they always had books and dolls reflecting a variety of ethnic backgrounds. I donate to charities that support women of colour. I sign petitions, go on marches...I mean, what fucking else can I actually do that is any different?

I don't have the power to hire anyone, I don't hang with racist friends, I don't have a racist family, except, ironically, my Indian in-laws with whom I am no contact, I don't have racist workmates. So not sure who I'm meant to be using my privilege to 'call out'. About the only thing I can think of in the last year is having to tell off some Year 2 students for calling another student from China, 'coronavirus'.

But because I'm not genuflecting in the church of Robin Di Angelo and endlessly processing my white privilege, that's somehow not enough?
I mean, seriously, this is like being a Christian again, but without the redeeming Christ figure. It's just original sin all the way down.

I think this entire obsession with white privilege, and being white and forcing others to confront their white privilege, as if that achieves anything, is bullshit, unless you live in the most backward village in all of the UK, or something.

Most of us recognise inequities of varying kinds, including race, and have been doing something about it for decades before this obsession with what I can only describe as a kind of pseudo confession.

@Melia100

What difference?

For example, I already vote (and volunteer for in elections) for a woman of colour. My kids are mixed race, so they always had books and dolls reflecting a variety of ethnic backgrounds. I donate to charities that support women of colour. I sign petitions, go on marches...I mean, what fucking else can I actually do that is any different?

I don't have the power to hire anyone, I don't hang with racist friends, I don't have a racist family, except, ironically, my Indian in-laws with whom I am no contact, I don't have racist workmates. So not sure who I'm meant to be using my privilege to 'call out'. About the only thing I can think of in the last year is having to tell off some Year 2 students for calling another student from China, 'coronavirus'.

But because I'm not genuflecting in the church of Robin Di Angelo and endlessly processing my white privilege, that's somehow not enough?
I mean, seriously, this is like being a Christian again, but without the redeeming Christ figure. It's just original sin all the way down.

I think this entire obsession with white privilege, and being white and forcing others to confront their white privilege, as if that achieves anything, is bullshit, unless you live in the most backward village in all of the UK, or something.

Most of us recognise inequities of varying kinds, including race, and have been doing something about it for decades before this obsession with what I can only describe as a kind of pseudo confession.

Hum, who said what you were doing wasn't enough? (I definitely didn't)

You obviously know about your privileges and have taken actions to make sure you help people of color, so you ARE making a difference.

What you do is EXACTLY what people want people with any type of privileges (in ALL areas and not just race or white people) to do.

You have educated yourself on this specific matter, looked at ways to help and are doing what you can at your scale, it's perfect, nobody (not me anyway) is asking you to do any more than that.

You probably don't realize that you do more than most though, so the anger that might be aimed at some white people who do nothing (or actively participate in racism) might feel like a personal attack about all white people (including you) but it isn't the case, people like you are most definitely part of the solution, and I am very grateful for what you do at your scale. Again, that's more than most (unfortunately).

The goal is for people to do what they can at their scale, I expect more of a White rich straight man, than I expect of a disable white woman, or Working class mother of 6, not everybody can help in the same way. Some can only help through voting and petitioning, others have financial means, some have connections that are useful, others have time they can spend volunteering etc, etc... The goal is for everyone, in all areas of life, to take an interest in people who have less and/or have been limited by the system in place in ways we haven't, and see what we can do within our abilities to help at everyone's personal scale based on each of our personal resources.

Linning Your posts are excellent. I wish more people thought like you.

Check your privilege is a pretty nasty thing for anyone to say to anyone else as no one knows the situation of another person so those using it tend to find it has the opposite effect to that they intended.

I certainly agree the person is political. Every woman who goes part time or does not out earn her husband or who chooses to do more around the house than he does or who tolerates sexism even for a day is damaging other women.

The word privilege really is about someone being very rich and hardly anyone is. If we could say certain people instead have certain advantages eg they have hands or can hear or don't have depression we would start to find more common ground.

Lining suggesting the goal is X however just depends on people's views. Not everyone thinks we should all help others of course. that is one stand point. Others don't share that view. They may have very different goals.

@Melia100

What difference?

For example, I already vote (and volunteer for in elections) for a woman of colour. My kids are mixed race, so they always had books and dolls reflecting a variety of ethnic backgrounds. I donate to charities that support women of colour. I sign petitions, go on marches...I mean, what fucking else can I actually do that is any different?

I don't have the power to hire anyone, I don't hang with racist friends, I don't have a racist family, except, ironically, my Indian in-laws with whom I am no contact, I don't have racist workmates. So not sure who I'm meant to be using my privilege to 'call out'. About the only thing I can think of in the last year is having to tell off some Year 2 students for calling another student from China, 'coronavirus'.

But because I'm not genuflecting in the church of Robin Di Angelo and endlessly processing my white privilege, that's somehow not enough?
I mean, seriously, this is like being a Christian again, but without the redeeming Christ figure. It's just original sin all the way down.

I think this entire obsession with white privilege, and being white and forcing others to confront their white privilege, as if that achieves anything, is bullshit, unless you live in the most backward village in all of the UK, or something.

Most of us recognise inequities of varying kinds, including race, and have been doing something about it for decades before this obsession with what I can only describe as a kind of pseudo confession.

Can I challenge a couple of points. You say you don’t work with racist coworkers. Are you 100% sure of that? I only challenge it as I have recently had to pick up a friend who had been experiencing racist bullying for well over 6 months at work. It started as little comments that the person could deny were racist but definitely were in context of everything that came. Anyway the point is, her colleagues all deny that this woman was racist because she never overtly said the n word I suppose. She definitely is.

It’s not just backward villages in the UK that have racism. London is rife with it. Look at the stop and search statistics. I’ve seen with my own eyes how people are treated on the tube. I’ve said before on this thread about elderly black woman, I was reminded last night a week or two before lockdown there was a black woman on crutches who no one offered a seat for. I was also standing so I couldn’t offer her a seat. I’ve never seen a white person on crutches where no one offered them a seat. The aggressiveness some people treat black people on the tube for minor transgressions. For example bags on the seat when the tube is empty, a white man does it and people ignore and sit down anyway. A black man does it and they go up to the seat and ask for it to be moved so they can sit down (the tube is empty so there are plenty of seats). Now I’m not saying it isn’t annoying when people use a seat up for their bag but the difference in reactions are very telling.

@Xenia

Check your privilege is a pretty nasty thing for anyone to say to anyone else as no one knows the situation of another person so those using it tend to find it has the opposite effect to that they intended.

I certainly agree the person is political. Every woman who goes part time or does not out earn her husband or who chooses to do more around the house than he does or who tolerates sexism even for a day is damaging other women.

The word privilege really is about someone being very rich and hardly anyone is. If we could say certain people instead have certain advantages eg they have hands or can hear or don't have depression we would start to find more common ground.

Lining suggesting the goal is X however just depends on people's views. Not everyone thinks we should all help others of course. that is one stand point. Others don't share that view. They may have very different goals.

That isn’t what privilege means. That might be your interpretation but it isn’t what it means. Check your privilege isn’t offensive. You find it offensive because of your own issues and connotations.

I’ll agree with your mantra for your twins going to university. It’s my own for my life and my DS’. “Be Kind” However, from your posts on here I don’t believe you are truly living that. Be kind also means trying to understand where people are coming from. Be kind means trying to shed your bias that are built on information outside of the person you are dealing with. You aren’t being kind if you deny that black people are being unfairly disadvantaged. Being kind isn’t a passive act, it’s an active act. You aren’t being kind if you deny black people are being unfairly treated.