... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

The Pakistani groomers looked down on the white women and they wouldn't have been able to do this to girls in their own culture so easily as they were more protected and I should imagine the parents would not have stood for it

Like racism it is more complex than a simple phrase.
Using these sweeping comments can annoy people greatly however true YOU believe them to be.

@woodhill

"Indian Cast System: You might want to read about the part the British empire played in this cast system and how the current Indian cast system has a lot to do with the British empire"

Of course it it always the British empire's fault, however it was already existence and why is it still in place - obviously it suits those in power.

Well yes but my point is that you can't bring something in an argument and be like ''look at India'' without acknowledging that the recent cast system is based mostly on the British Empire.

Plus it's still irrelevant to the topic at hand, the Indian Cast System is extremely problematic but has nothing to do with racism as the casts weren't divided by race but usually by class and other factors (food habits etc...), it was also outlawed, the fact that it still in practice despite it technically being illegal proves that prejudices often outlive the law and/or that people in power are conveniently refusing to acknowledging their privileges and the fact that them having those privileges and power is problematic (reminds you of other people who do the same by any chance?)

So if anything it proves my point rather than play against it.

@woodhill

The Pakistani groomers looked down on the white women and they wouldn't have been able to do this to girls in their own culture so easily as they were more protected and I should imagine the parents would not have stood for it

What you describe towards those girl is Xenophobia, it can be as damaging as Racism to the victims and can present in fairly similar forms historically but it's completely different to Racism in both its roots and scale. It OBVIOUSLY changes nothing for those girls, but I guess that's not the point. What happens to those girls is tragic, no denying that, regardless of the cause behind it.

Ok Linning but like most things the issues are complex

@Linning, thank you for posting such a well-reasoned and accessible explanation.

Sorry you've got here through by being on the receiving end of such hostility, aggression and thoughtlessness.

I don't know why there are so many people who fail to understand that's it a privilege to be able to learn about racism by reading about it instead of being forced to experience it.

Using these sweeping comments can annoy people greatly however true YOU believe them to be

"Using these sweeping comments can annoy white people greatly however true BAME people believe them to be"

Fixed that for you.

@woodhill

Ok Linning but like most things the issues are complex

Of course, this is why I stated that even as a minority myself (mixed race, brown-skin, queer woman) I am still at an advantage and privileged when compared to darker skin women.

Every issue is layered and complex that's why Racism (and other words ending in -ISM and -IA) are still around and still thriving it's because it's not straight-forward.

Because unfortunately people will look at the cases of these girls and think (without understanding what racism and xenophobia are and how they are different) 'Well here, see, reverse racism! Told you black people aren't any more oppressed than white people, and that privilege talk is BS"

When in reality, the case of those girls only prove that there are SO many issues to tackle apart from Racism and that yes Xenophobia (and sexism) are also issues that are happening and do affect white populations as much as population of colors and they NEED fighting for and to be abolished as well, but they should NOT be used to undermine the reality of Racism because they are two different causes and they require their own separate fights.

@LonginesPrime You have fixed nothing. How dare you assume there is not a diversity of thought amongst the people in those groups you mention?

[quote forsucksfake]@LonginesPrime You have fixed nothing. How dare you assume there is not a diversity of thought amongst the people in those groups you mention? [/quote]
Could you quote a couple of people of color who deny the existence of ''white privileges/racial discrimination''?

The only one who could be triggered by the word ''white privileges'' are white people, so I assume the diversity of thought would come from POC beliefs regarding the existence of ''white privileges''?

@LonginesPrime
No, you don't get it.
Like racism it is more complex than a simple phrase.
Using these sweeping comments can annoy people greatly however true YOU believe them to be. this is what I said.

this is what you said

Using these sweeping comments can annoy white people greatly however true BAME people believe them to be"

Fixed that for you.
The arrogant desperation to be more woke than the next person. Do grow up.
Using these sweeping unthought through statements can annoy anyone. I'm not arguing that black people should not be angered at white privilege - why shouldn't they be? Poor people are angered at rich people. Fat cat CEO's anger people. It's the arrogant generalisations that you KNOW that all white people feel one way, and, even worse YOU KNOW how ALL black people and asian people and all minority ethnic groups feel. - it beggars belief it really does.

When are we actually going to hear practical suggestions for how to end this? And I mean more than "defund the police"? (Which doesn't seem to be working so well for Seattle or Atlanta right now)

Linning

Saudi: How is that relevant? You don't have to abide by Saudi Culture unless you are in Saudi and nobody forces you to visit surely?

Saudi Arabia spends hundreds of millions of dollars promoting Saudi culture in the west. They pay for loads mosques, madrassas and religious events. So wahabi culture is spreading, you don’t have to go to Saudi for a taste!

Bluemoon, yes, technically what I meant by "white people" in that sentence was "white people who deny that structural racism exists".

But I figured that white people who acknowledge that structural racism exists won't be offended because they will understand the point, so the only white people who'd be offended by my generalisation would be the ones I was referring to anyway.

By being offended by what I wrote, you've self-selected into that group. The other white people will understand, so don't worry about them.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

When are we actually going to hear practical suggestions for how to end this? And I mean more than "defund the police"? (Which doesn't seem to be working so well for Seattle or Atlanta right now)

1- Check your privileges (regardless of race) 2- Educate yourself. Now you know your privileges (not just racial privileges, ALL of them), read about how those privileges negatively impact others and the part you play in it on both a conscious and unconscious level. 3- Take an interest in politics and VOTE, if you care about racism, don't vote for candidates/policies that will negatively impact people of color 4- Connect with minorities, whether it's people of color, disable people, gay people, jews, muslims, connect with people that are different to you and learn directly from them. 5- Ask them what they think you could do at your scale, there might be some local ways you can help that they will know about and I won't. 6- If you are part of another minority group that is also discriminated against (disable, gay, muslim, jewish etc...) talk to them about your struggles and suggest ways for them to help your cause, the goal is for us to be united, it's not all about the fight against racism and if we take an interest in each other's cause we will go further together than individually. 7- Talk to your kids about racism, homophobia, sexism, etc... those are important topics, we all play a part in some of those things and the sooner they are made aware the sooner they can help make the world a better place. 8- Stay informed. Read the news, take an interest in what's going on around the world, read article, question things that don't sound right. 9- Hold your government accountable, if something is or seem wrong, stand up against it, request concrete answers and when appropriate, request justice. 10- Volunteer, plenty of ways to help through volunteering. 11- Stay aware that winning one battle isn't winning the war. Don't take one step into the right direction and then give up thinking your job is done. Fighting inequalities is an almost never ending-battle, you might have to spend your entire life doing it, so understand that you fight for the next generation more than for yours and might not ever get to enjoy the freedom and world you are fighting. It's STILL worth it.

Here, those would be suggestions to start with.

@WakeAndBake

Linning

Saudi: How is that relevant? You don't have to abide by Saudi Culture unless you are in Saudi and nobody forces you to visit surely?

Saudi Arabia spends hundreds of millions of dollars promoting Saudi culture in the west. They pay for loads mosques, madrassas and religious events. So wahabi culture is spreading, you don’t have to go to Saudi for a taste!

STILL how is that relevant to the topic at hand?

How is that Racism? Or have anything to do with racism?

Linning

Indian Cast System: You might want to read about the part the British empire played in this cast system and how the current Indian cast system has a lot to do with the British empire.

The British also banned the practice of widow burning and eradicated the thugee cults that preyed on travelers. Do you think they should have let the women be thrown onto the funeral pyres? Should the religious beliefs of the thugee have been respected?

You are the one that brought it up! I think Saudi culture is pretty racist, especially against black people and it’s influence is spreading.

@WakeAndBake

Linning

Indian Cast System: You might want to read about the part the British empire played in this cast system and how the current Indian cast system has a lot to do with the British empire.

The British also banned the practice of widow burning and eradicated the thugee cults that preyed on travelers. Do you think they should have let the women be thrown onto the funeral pyres? Should the religious beliefs of the thugee have been respected?

I am sorry, I mean no offense but how are your posts, so far, relevant to the thread? Did I say or suggest any of the things you just posted? No, so I think you can safely assume my response to all those questions would be no.

I have also addressed why the Indian Cast System is problematic but completely irrelevant to a topic about racism.

Linning

None of that fits with BLM movement though.

That list is what any decent human being already does and already agreed with. The BLM insists on the focus being solely on systemic racism of black people and on holding white people to account for that. That's without even considering their aims to dismantle capitalism and the patriarchy and the nuclear family.

BLM absolutely isn't about addressing racism against other minorities, anti semitism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia, disability discrimination is it?

Sorry have not rtft and was just replying to what seemed like some misguided facts

@WakeAndBake

You are the one that brought it up! I think Saudi culture is pretty racist, especially against black people and it’s influence is spreading.

I did not bring up Saudi Arabia at all, another posted did and I responded (saying it was irrelevant).

The word you are looking for re Saudi Arabia's treatment of black people is '' Xenophobia'', not ''Racism'' (though yes it's still discrimination and obviously feels the same to the people of color there), plus if the West accepts to support discriminatory views just because Saudi Arabia is promoting it to them, then surely the West is still the problem.

It's like cheating, another woman can walk around naked but it takes a man deciding to go there and not having the moral compass to resist to go there and cheat.

In fact the fact that the west accepts the money of such country despite knowing what's going on there should tell you that the west very much IS the problem.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Linning

None of that fits with BLM movement though.

That list is what any decent human being already does and already agreed with. The BLM insists on the focus being solely on systemic racism of black people and on holding white people to account for that. That's without even considering their aims to dismantle capitalism and the patriarchy and the nuclear family.

BLM absolutely isn't about addressing racism against other minorities, anti semitism, sexism, homophobia, islamophobia, disability discrimination is it?

I am not going to go into another debate with you, we aren't talking about BLM here, we are taking about RACISM full stop.

If you feel the need to make a thread about BLM and your grievance, suit yourself, I won't engage.

You ask how you could start to end racism, I gave you pointers, now if you would rather ignore those and derail the conversation and make it about BLM specifically because you don't agree with it and want to talk about it, please make your own thread. This isn't what this thread is about.

I am not a reactionary, so I am not "triggered." I am black, and while I agree that white skin offers privilege in some situations, I believe arguments around power and privilege are much more nuanced than they are presented by you here.

And for goodness sake, it is caste.

I am not going to go into another debate with you, we aren't talking about BLM here, we are taking about RACISM full stop.

Oh, my mistake. I thought we weren't allowed to talk about anything other than BLM right now, because that's the focus.

You ask how you could start to end racism,

No I didn't. The thread is about white privilege. I'm asking what we do about white privilege. And if you were talking about racism why include all the things about tackling homophobia, sexism, etc?

So far, the only suggestion I've seen for ending white privilege centres around defunding the police. Seeing as that doesn't even apply in the UK I'm wondering what can we change here.