... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

We are certainly all born different. I do think it is often unhelpful for groups to be pitted against each other and it can be better in life to find common ground and secondly realise that moaning tends to get people a lot less far than trying on a personal level to do the best you can with the hand you have been dealt in life. I am obviously very lucky indeed as I am just about never ill and am happy - the two things I think are most key to a good life - in fact much more so than skin colour which for me is pretty irrelevant as I have worked from behind a computer at home since 1994 and huge numbers of peopl who pay me probably aren't even bothered if I am male or female never mind if I look like the back end of a bus or an yellow or green or black or white as long as I get the work done - in a sense the internet has made people able to sell their skills (in some but of course not all ) areas without colour, accent, class etc. being relevant. For most people who want to pay me to do work the issues are am I very good at the work; secondly can I do it by the time they want it.

Oh FFS

Try being Working Class and ignored constantly , whether we are black or white . Most of you are probably secure in jobs, marriages, naice houses and have no fucking clue .
White Privilage ? Not round here and not for US .
for you to choke on .

@Warsawa31

How can we make everyone equal when we aren’t? We do a fairly decent job of accommodating society based around a general norm which most people fall into- eg able bodied people - and adapting the norms to suit people who are disabled.

All I’m saying is we aren’t born equal at all, no amount of fighting for rights will ever change that. Skin colour should be a non issue but we don’t stop going on about it giving it power . We label ourselves white and black and Asian and gay and Muslim Christian etc and wonder why we have so many differences we can’t seem to get over. We can restructure our world to let go of all of the labels and falsehoods but we won’t. So By all means keep fighting the pointless fight Which can never be Settled.

The thing is we ARE equal we just AREN’T treated equally.

We are all humans, skin color, ability (or well disability) and religion should not determine our power/rights yet we have created a system where that’s the case. Our differences aren’t innate they are man-made so yes very much changeable.

Of course if one would rather just not do anything about it (like you) then yes, might as well give up.

For some it goes farther than a battle. It’s our life, we die because of those inequalities, we get raped because of them, we get tortured and jailed because of them.

If that doesn’t outrage you enough to try and do something about it, and not be blasé, that means you probably have a certain amount of internalized prejudice where the system in place doesn’t seem as so bad to you (maybe, potentially, because it benefits you?)

@Xenia

We are certainly all born different. I do think it is often unhelpful for groups to be pitted against each other and it can be better in life to find common ground and secondly realise that moaning tends to get people a lot less far than trying on a personal level to do the best you can with the hand you have been dealt in life. I am obviously very lucky indeed as I am just about never ill and am happy - the two things I think are most key to a good life - in fact much more so than skin colour which for me is pretty irrelevant as I have worked from behind a computer at home since 1994 and huge numbers of peopl who pay me probably aren't even bothered if I am male or female never mind if I look like the back end of a bus or an yellow or green or black or white as long as I get the work done - in a sense the internet has made people able to sell their skills (in some but of course not all ) areas without colour, accent, class etc. being relevant. For most people who want to pay me to do work the issues are am I very good at the work; secondly can I do it by the time they want it.

Do you NOT realize how privileged this comment is though? Like genuinely?

I don’t need to label myself as black, most people aren’t blind and can see me for what I am, the same way they can guess my sexuality by seeing me with who I date.

Labels isn’t what causes discrimination and playing the “colorblind” game isn’t what’s going to stop racism.

The fact that you live in a country that allows you to have the job you have and the fact that you have enough education to be able to have a remote job from your laptop and reliable internet and equipment to do so, is something that proves you have access to some privileges. Most people in the UK, outside of Covid 19, would struggle to find remote online work with no diploma or no/little experience.

Nothing wrong with privileges but you can’t say “well I work from home and nobody care about my skin color and I don’t see color” without acknowledging that most people, specifically minorities can’t afford to do that nor to live like that, people aren’t colorblind (as nice as it might seem like it would be, though it likely wouldn’t change anything).

Yes in an ideal world people would focus on common ground rather than divisive things, that’s the GOAL, help us get there?

Generally for all the reasons given above but also poor white boys are academically more at risk than poor black boys. I think there is a lot more work to be done on racial equality, but that work has started.

@WhentheRabbitsWentWild

Oh FFS

Try being Working Class and ignored constantly , whether we are black or white . Most of you are probably secure in jobs, marriages, naice houses and have no fucking clue .
White Privilage ? Not round here and not for US .
for you to choke on .

Yes, yes, because people of color cannot be working class and don’t know poverty nor the feeling of them and their struggles being ignored? Oh no, it’s actually pretty much their life, my bad.

Working class come in all shapes and form love, so does poverty. You can be working class and white and broke as fuck and white, which probably isn’t easy but AT LEAST you don’t have to deal with racism on top of that.

Another , so you don’t feel hard done by anymore than you seem to be and so we can BOTH choke on it together. Equal “privileges” and all. ;)

@WhentheRabbitsWentWild I'm a working class single mum and I still understand that I have white privilege. There's a difference between white privilege and class privilege.

Try being Working Class and ignored constantly , whether we are black or white . Most of you are probably secure in jobs, marriages, naice houses and have no fucking clue
White Privilage ? Not round here and not for US

That exactly the point though - unless someone has walked a mile in your shoes, they have no idea what challenges you experience.

You're calling people out on their blindness caused by perceived economic/class privilege because they have no fucking clue - can you not see how that's exactly how white privilege works too? White people obviously have no fucking clue what it's like to be BAME, and it's for BAME people to share their experiences and be heard, not for white people to tell them they disagree that structural racism exists.

I think it’s the way in which it is often used - to many it means white people are in a better position than black people.

It’s quite hard for White people struggling to Get by, living hand to mouth on benefits to be told by a multi millionaire black football Player they are the privileged ones because they are white.

I know this is not what is meant but the phase, with the ordinary meanIng of the component parts Does not convey the situation accurately.

Conversely, I think the term has the potential to become a self fulfilling prophecy for many. Many people from many different backgrounds suffer a disadvantage in reaching their goals, or indeed just getting through life, constantly referring to the fact they are at a disadvantage is likely to prevent many from even trying.

@Lifeisgenerallyfun

I think it’s the way in which it is often used - to many it means white people are in a better position than black people.

It’s quite hard for White people struggling to Get by, living hand to mouth on benefits to be told by a multi millionaire black football Player they are the privileged ones because they are white.

I know this is not what is meant but the phase, with the ordinary meanIng of the component parts Does not convey the situation accurately.

Conversely, I think the term has the potential to become a self fulfilling prophecy for many. Many people from many different backgrounds suffer a disadvantage in reaching their goals, or indeed just getting through life, constantly referring to the fact they are at a disadvantage is likely to prevent many from even trying.

But they are. From a racial point of view (which is how it’s used) they ARE in a better position.

Everyone struggles or have/will struggle at some point, in different ways and face different challenges, nobody says White people don’t struggle just that they at least don’t have to face racism. If a white person is upset that a rich black football tell them they are privileged (and again each person in the world, regardless of skin colour, have access to certain privileges) then why don’t they listen to all the WHITE rich folks who tell them they are privileged. You mentioned football and that’s good because sports is one of the ONLY way for black people to access this amount of wealth. For some sports is the only way to access an education (in the US). Yet we are surrounded by white wealthy folks but like you say white people will take offense to the few black wealthy one. If a black person say you are privileged despite him being rich it’s because he understand and knows what he has had to face until making it to the top, it’s because he understands that his fame and status brings him a layer of protection he wouldn’t have if he was just another black man on the streets. The fact that he is rich and famous now (and that now makes him less likely to be killed in an act of racism by police officers or other folks) is exactly why changes need to be done.

It’s easy to say “if you think about it too much it will happen.” That’s not how it works. Yes SOME (a very small portion) will probably go straight to crime vs trying in a system they know was designed for them to fail. But racism is CONSTANT, it happens on so many scales in ways you, if you are white, simply wouldn’t understand. It’s impossible to forget or act as if I am not working against the system instead of within or with it.

From micro racism:

• People touching my hair without my consent
• People asking me where I am REALLY from
• People discussing my genes « wouldn’t it be nice if you were with a white man, it would make SUCH cute babies!»
• People discussing my skin as if it’s an accessory they wish they could order for themselves (without having to face the racism and discrimination that comes with it though of course!)
• People making weird othering comments “ Oh, I have never dated a black woman before/ Oh my ex was black too!/ Oh, you are the first black friend I have!” Which imply they expect I will be different to what they know simply because of the amount of melanin in my skin.

To more advance racism:

-being called racial slurs
-being hit and told to «go home»
-being controlled about 100 times more than White people
-Sometimes being the ONLY one being controlled in the bus or train.

• Being threatened to be raped
• Being dismissed more or mocked medically.
• Police driving by and stopping for no reason but to observe me, ask me where I (or my brothers) are going.
• Being dependent on white people (doctors, policemen, interviewer) not being racist to both survive AND thrive.

You can’t just forget. Everyday I face one of the above. Every single fucking day. A comment, a gaze, an unwanted touch.

It’s impossible to forget when people/society is so damn set on reminding.

And again I am one of the lucky ones, I am lighter skin and I am a woman. I shudder at being the thought of living as a black man or how people treat my brothers.

Linning, that sounds absolutely grim. I'm so sorry that you're being asked to cope with this.

Thank you for articulating it so clearly.

White privilege exists. Do people really think it doesn’t? The reality is that in life people take whatever advantages they can get, for many white people there is no rush or rationale to give away that advantage.

It’s not fair but I’m under no illusion that this is not the case, whether people want to admit it or not.

We aren’t equal in ability, Talent, IQ, height, propensity for certain diseases and the list goes on...

I don’t judge someone’s worth by those things, as well as skin colour and who they have sex with.

I just don’t see how one characteristic, being white, can propel a person to a position of privilege in spite of the myriad of circumstances one might face.

Chinese people tend to perform better in school, earn higher wages Than white people do they have some inherent privilege they should acknowledge?

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018

Prejudice will end when people are looked at as people and not as members of various groups.

[quote Warsawa31]We aren’t equal in ability, Talent, IQ, height, propensity for certain diseases and the list goes on...

I don’t judge someone’s worth by those things, as well as skin colour and who they have sex with.

I just don’t see how one characteristic, being white, can propel a person to a position of privilege in spite of the myriad of circumstances one might face.

Chinese people tend to perform better in school, earn higher wages Than white people do they have some inherent privilege they should acknowledge?

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018[/quote]
It wouldn't if white people weren't the people holding most of the power but they are, so while you do not judge people for all those small differences plenty do and plenty use their power to continue to make those differences matter and continue to be divisive.

If you don't understand how being white makes you privileged it's because you don't know what it's like being discriminated on the basis of your race at a systemic level (which is privileged in itself and why it's called ''white privileges).

It doesn't matter that Chinese people thrive more, they thrive DESPITE the system not thanks to it, so it's irrelevant.

Asian folks from countries like China, Japan and Korea suffer from a different type of discrimination that is different to South-East Asians, Indians, Pakistanis etc... and other people of color (Black etc...) due to the wealth of their country and their place on the international scene. They still suffer from discrimination though, and they only thrive because people associate Asians with smart and trust-worthy in comparison to other people of Color.
Studies have shown that patients are more likely to ask for a second opinion or question medical advice when advised by a black doctor than by a white or Asian doctor.
Those are subconscious bias but I am sure if you were to put 3 men an Asian man, a white man and a black man and we were to request people associate a degree with each " Maths, Electrician and Business'' Most people would most likely associate Math with the Asian man, Electrician for the black man and Business for the white man'', even if you were to ask people '' Here are 3 men (the same 3 men), you know nothing about them but you need help with your taxes and whoever you pick will help you, who would you pick?" I can guarantee you that a good chunk would pick the Asian dude first and very few would pick the black dude. It's subconscious bias, that just so happen to benefit Asian folks that we all have on a bunch of topics (me included) and will mean that a Chinese man is likely to have access to more opportunities than even a white man, BECAUSE they are perceived due stereotypes as more trust-worthy and smarter and therefore come across as a ''sound financial choice''.

If you were to do the thing with 3 women instead, people might still assume the Asian woman is good at math, but if we offer different degrees '' Nails, Business and Carpentry'' I can assure you that consciously or subconsciously most people would assume the Asian lady does Nails or business rather than carpentry. It's mental associations we make, whether consciously or subconsciously but that are revealing because they determine how qualified we perceive people to be, how trust-worthy we feel they are, how competent etc...

We ALL have bias, bias are inconvenient but they are extremely life limiting when the people in power are people who have negative bias about you. You might not understand how privileged you are to live within a system where people in power have no negative biased about you based on your race (because you and them are both Caucasian), but it is a MASSIVE privilege because as much as you might not believe it, people treat you based on the way they perceive you. Their perception of you as an individual and based on specific factors (race, sex, age, sexuality) determine the worth and value they attribute to you and because they have power they can decide to treat you according to how they see your worth and the value they give you, by limiting your rights (gay people), by limiting your choices (anti-abortion laws for women), by limiting your ability to feel safe (police violence and a system that looks the other way), by limiting your access to wealth through laws that means the chances someone from a poor socio-economic background (most POC) evolving economically remains liw, by limiting your access to health (lack of universal healthcare in the US for example where poor people, again most POC, are automatically condemn to either die of preventable illnesses or be in debt their entire life), limiting your access to education (overpriced University in the US for example, limiting, again, mostly people of color, from accessing post-high school education) etc, etc...

The people in power determine your quality of life, in fact they determine almost every aspect of your life and might have an impact in your death and how and when/where you die. When the people in power look like you and can relate to you based on that massive factor, you end up being at a massive advantage. It is much harder to discriminate and kill someone that looks like someone you love and respect (your own self, your daughter or your mom) than someone that looks different and you can't relate to.

Hence why white people ARE privileged.

Lining - that was undoubtedly the best description of white privilege I’ve ever heard. I might be looking at this from the wrong angle. I’ll need to re read that And think it over - thank you

Beautifully put

@Warsawa31

Lining - that was undoubtedly the best description of white privilege I’ve ever heard. I might be looking at this from the wrong angle. I’ll need to re read that And think it over - thank you

You're welcome, glad it helps! :)

@mummmy2017

So South Africa, ethnic cleansing, all the white people killed or displaced! Saudi we all have to abide by that culture, no drinking, covered up. Cast system in India. African countries used white slaves. That's the reverse of WP. Does it not happen all over the world according to which country your in?

No.

What's happening right now in South Africa is complex and obviously nobody is defending it but MOST of mumsnet was alive when Apartheid ended. Black people were enslaved, tortured, killed and rape on mass there for over 50 years. Most adults have had to live through it, most kids there now today have to grow up within the aftermath of that event. THINK ABOUT IT.

No they should NOT be killing white people en masse, but I don't think countries, and that applies to the UK, the US, as much as South Africa should genuinely believe that they should be able to murder people for decades and then when they are FINALLY done be like "Okay we are done now, whoopsies, well that was kind of bad, wasn't it? We really did fuck you up, didn't we? But we are friends now though, right? hehe" and then expect minorities and the people they oppressed to be the bigger person and take the fake apology and move on.

Those people (and again that applies to plenty of countries) NEED reparation to make up for the last 70 years and the inequalities it has created and they shouldn't have to murder and kill to obtain it, the same way black people shouldn't need to march in 2020 (!) to ask for equal rights and request they stop being murdered by their own government and to have to remind them: '' Hey you, who said you were sorry about killing us and enslaving us for centuries, why do you have a status of that fucker who killed and raped my ancestors and supported racial divide on your main street, and why am I made to have to look at it everyday on my way to work?'

Yet, even after the Apartheid, the British empire, the Bloody American Civil war, black people are STILL needing to fight and resort to violence to be heard and to not just be given crumbs of freedom.

Again, what's happening in South Africa right now is not okay, BUT what's less okay is having to resort to such amount of violence (everywhere around the world) for people of color to even start being heard and acknowledged.

Saudi: How is that relevant? You don't have to abide by Saudi Culture unless you are in Saudi and nobody forces you to visit surely? How is that related to the topic at hand?

Indian Cast System: You might want to read about the part the British empire played in this cast system and how the current Indian cast system has a lot to do with the British empire.

Which African countries, which era? Those and the context matters, the need for talks surrounding White Privileges is because it's still relevant today as we speak, George Floyd died 3 weeks ago, Breonna Taylor 3 months ago, Ahmaud Arbery 4 months ago...

Nobody would hold white people accountable if racism occurred 300 years ago, it's happening TODAY, right now, as we speak.

There is no such things as reverse white privilege. The same way there is no such a thing as reverse racism. Who have you known ever benefited from being black at the same scale you/people benefit from being white?

mummmy2017
So South Africa, ethnic cleansing, all the white people killed or displaced!

News to me. Did this happen since last week when I was on the phone to my white South African family?

There is a specific issue in SA around farming – which was sadly entirely predictable. I was saying back in the 1990s that if the new govt didn't sort out some level of compulsory farmland purchase sharpish then it would become a flashpoint, because of 4 centuries of forcible acquisition of farmland. But you know, compulsory purchase would have upset white farmers, so... (TBF, the govt might also have wanted to avoid a productivity dip during any farming transition period.)

BTW forced removals of black people in South Africa from their homes were going on into the 1980s. As Linning says, it's not some distant historical event.

"Indian Cast System: You might want to read about the part the British empire played in this cast system and how the current Indian cast system has a lot to do with the British empire"

Of course it it always the British empire's fault, however it was already existence and why is it still in place - obviously it suits those in power.