... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

Obviously most people with a disadvantage or whose children have one are more likely to be petitioning for change for their particular group - disabled, gypsy, jew, black, Indian, female or whatever. it is just human nature. That does not mean that we don't also want everyone who is different from us to be treated badly. it is not a race to the bottom. The UK is 3% black and 50% female so if we have a shortage of resources we should concentrate on issues which have a bigger effect on more people i.e. sexism over racism against black people as the greater good in the UK (which is a very different place from the USA) is served by measures which help more people./ That does not mean ignore people of whom there are not very many eg people with a rare disability but it is a reasonably fair measure - eg if no one were black in an area then it would be a bit pointless spending a lot of money on race relations full of images of black people whereas if Romanians picking crops in the country were picked on it would be better locally to ensure people were kinder to those foreigners.

If you believe I'm a troll or lying about my disability then report me to MN. They are quite welcome to contact me and I'll provide them with proof.

Do you realise that you are talking to real people? You've got absolutely no idea what I deal with and then you think it's ok to say that I'm lying about it. If that's what you think then report me to MN rather than resorting to bully boy tactics.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

If you have those, I'm sorry to hear you do but your response (and some curious gaps in between) come across like you haven't had to think much about yourself as a disabled person (Nothing wrong with that, it just means you may be a bit more privileged than some). Your posts come across like you bring up disability simply to prove a point rather than being genuine. You bring it up and some of what you say regarding it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps you're trying to keep some details out (Nothing wrong with that).

As I said, it's not far-fetched to think people can make things up online, so I don't apologise for suspecting.

Perhaps you're trying to keep some details out (Nothing wrong with that).

You think? Why should I have to describe to you every detail of my disability? You both were utterly out of order. As I say, check my posting history - going back forever you'll find posts about the illnesses I have relating to threads on shielding, medications, pain management, chronic illness, talking to someone that's having a procedure I've had.

So, report me to MN and I'll provide them with proof. Otherwise you're just bullying.

As I said, it's not far-fetched to think people can make things up online, so I don't apologise for suspecting.

Well troll hunting isn't allowed on MN is it? The procedure is to report. I haven't reported your posts btw. Let them stand and let other people see what you and linning said.

I agree with you completely. I saw a clear succinct explanation of it the other day which I thought summed it up well which was simply - as a white person you have very likely never suffered as a result of the colour of your skin. It's true. Generally speaking, particularly in the West, we won't have.
However, in answer to your question as to WHY people don't acknowledge white privilege - I think you'll separately get white Eastern Europeans that are discriminated against despite their skin colour. You'll get white women who are more likely to suffer sexual abuse than a black man for example. So people in those situations or who know people that have been abused despite being white, it can be hard for them to grasp. I don't think it's always down to racism or prejudice, sometimes people struggle to see outside of their own personal experiences.
The difference is, and what people are missing sometimes is that they may have been abused or discriminated against despite their skin colour, rather than because of their skin colour. In other words 'whiteness' isn't a barrier against abuse, it'll just come in other forms.

Yea yea yea..outrage outrage. Offended offended. No one is bullying you here anymore than you've bullied posters out of this thread by making it about yourself when it wasn't.

Why should I have to describe to you every detail of my disability?

Again the questions you come up with to prove some sort of offence that hasn't been said makes me wonder Has anybody said that to you? Did I not just write no one has to prove themselves?

I can equally shout and scream you've directly accused me of forcing you to do something I haven't. I can make a big deal about that, shall I then?

As I said, sorry to hear about your condition but NOT SORRY I suspected you and stated it just like you've been accusing others left right center of anything you wish here.

Bullying? Pfft. What else will you claim, I wonder.

And no I don't bother to go through people history. I have better things to do. I use what is said where it's being said. And I haven't accused you of being a troll. I haven't written those words at all. Again claiming I said what I didn't say. I AM OFFENDED!!!

Feel free to report though 🙄

[quote Hearhoovesthinkzebras]*

Again the questions you come up with to prove some sort of offence that hasn't been said makes me wonderconfused Has anybody said that to you? Did I not just write no one has to prove themselves?

Yes, by questioning whether I have just made up having a disability because apparently my answers don't fit what you consider to be the correct way for a disabled person to respond.

Part of what my illness causes is cognitive impairment. It affects my ability to process information so it's kind of ironic that my disability is the reason why you are questioning whether or not I have a disability. I guess that's part of ableism though isn't it? You don't understand the scope of disability and how it affects people and so you make judgements about people because you are ignorant to what they are dealing with.

You don't understand the scope of disability and how it affects people

Oops in the same sentence, here you are making judgements about me because I suppose I haven't shared anything with you regarding ability or not and my posts make you think I am what you suspect I am. Hmm...I wonder what kind of privilege that proves? 🙄🙄

I always think this shows privilege very well. It's the idea that you have a head start but it's nothing to do with anything you've done. Worth a watch

@Xenia

Obviously most people with a disadvantage or whose children have one are more likely to be petitioning for change for their particular group - disabled, gypsy, jew, black, Indian, female or whatever. it is just human nature. That does not mean that we don't also want everyone who is different from us to be treated badly. it is not a race to the bottom. The UK is 3% black and 50% female so if we have a shortage of resources we should concentrate on issues which have a bigger effect on more people i.e. sexism over racism against black people as the greater good in the UK (which is a very different place from the USA) is served by measures which help more people./ That does not mean ignore people of whom there are not very many eg people with a rare disability but it is a reasonably fair measure - eg if no one were black in an area then it would be a bit pointless spending a lot of money on race relations full of images of black people whereas if Romanians picking crops in the country were picked on it would be better locally to ensure people were kinder to those foreigners.

But women are also affected by racism. They are also affected by homophobia, they are also affected by Xenophobia or Antisemitism.

You CANNOT help women without helping ALL women, you are pretty much saying ''there is more white straight women in the UK therefore we should advocate for them more" (because you can't advocate for ALL women without advocating for all those other issues too), the thing is White straight women are the women who need the least help.

They are the majority they already don't suffer from Racism or Xenophobia or Homophobia. They are already privileged and resources are ALREADY being spent dis-proportionally on them as a result.

The goal of equality/equal rights/feminism is for ALL women to be equal, not just the majority.

The goal isn't for already visible and accepted folks (the majority) to have more visibility to respect statistics, it is to make sure minorities, are being made to feel equally visible, equally respected, equally ''loved'', equally embraced.

It is so that the British Muslim woman can see herself and her family represented in an add, it's so the British Black woman can scroll through a magazine and see women with her skin tone and have access to make up and skin/hair products that also include her, it's so the Asian lady can identify herself with the media because she is able to see people like her. It's so minorities aren't made to feel like they matter less because there are more ''pressing matters'' than them.

If you care about sexism and feel it's the greater evil and eradicating it and reinforcing women's rights is the ''greater good'' for the UK then surely you care about ALL women and not just the women that aren't oppressed in other ways?

How can you seriously say ''it's not personal but let's focus on the majority here, because minorities, well they are minorities aren't they?" (which is literally the type of thinking we are tackling on this thread!)

Linning

You posted accusing me of being a troll and lying about my illness and disability, goading me into responding and now claim that you arent insisting I give you details about my disability?

What is the point in me telling you all of the barriers that I face or the changes that I need in society in order to put me on an even footing with able bodied people? You and the op have just proved in your recent posts the discrimination that disabled people face, particularly those with invisible disabilities. We don't fit the picture you have in your heads of a disabled person and so therefore we must be making it up. Disabilities come in many forms and affect people in many ways - not all disabilities are physical and yet you've repeatedly made reference to my posts saying that I'm pretending not to understand, I'm confused,and so on. Yeah, Google cognitive impairment, dysautonomia, and Google effects of pregabalin and tramadol. Maybe that will help you to understand a tiny bit about how part of my disability affects me. The part that you've been using to attack me and accuse me of lying.

@gubbinsy Wow. That's something! Thanks for sharing this.

I really dislike that people have additional issues just going about their day to day lives.

I do think “white privilege“ should be Rebranded as “majority privilege” it’s not fair to make people feel shame about their skin colour. Changing demographics mean that white people aren't in the majority In some parts of the U.K. other majority populations around the world have privilege or the advantage of belonging to a culture where their ancestors Established The norms.

We label people as much as possible, nothing seems to be private anymore - I get the sentiment and trying to help people but this is a cruel and really dangerous way of doing it. You can expect people to constantly degrade themselves and admit that they are privileged even when they are not without creating resentment.

We are stuck in viewing the world through this insane oppression hierarchy where power is everything.

We are not equal we never have been and we never will be - it’s impossible unless we are all clones.

How is knowing and accepting you have some type of privilege or advantage over someone (everyone does) degrading yourself or making people feel ashamed? If someone states they are able bodied so they know they'll have that privilege/advantage over disabled people due to the gap between their provision as an able bodied person and the limited provisions for disabled people in society, would you think they are degrading themselves or feeling ashamed of being able-bodied?

I think the issue is a triggering one because it has to do with race. I'll go as far as saying I don't really think the term privilege is the problem but the particular form of privilege people are restless about. Race is a sensitive topic and as some PP have said, privilege really isn't as tangible for the privileged (those with the advantage) as it is for the underprivileged.

It's usually the disadvantaged who observe the unequal treatment and look at others to realise they infact have what they don't. The ones with the advantage are just being themselves. Their life is the standard or the default or the norm, so nothing to observe out of the ordinary.

We are not equal we never have been and we never will be - it’s impossible unless we are all clones.

Right, so all equality causes, time to pack up. Show's over. Let's also give back the equality victories won in the past. Why bother to fight when it should be left alone?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Linning

You posted accusing me of being a troll and lying about my illness and disability, goading me into responding and now claim that you arent insisting I give you details about my disability?

What is the point in me telling you all of the barriers that I face or the changes that I need in society in order to put me on an even footing with able bodied people? You and the op have just proved in your recent posts the discrimination that disabled people face, particularly those with invisible disabilities. We don't fit the picture you have in your heads of a disabled person and so therefore we must be making it up. Disabilities come in many forms and affect people in many ways - not all disabilities are physical and yet you've repeatedly made reference to my posts saying that I'm pretending not to understand, I'm confused,and so on. Yeah, Google cognitive impairment, dysautonomia, and Google effects of pregabalin and tramadol. Maybe that will help you to understand a tiny bit about how part of my disability affects me. The part that you've been using to attack me and accuse me of lying.

I did not ask you to reveal any medical information about you, you did this of your own free-will and absolutely NOT at my request. Stop victimizing myself.

Glad you finally acknowledge Ableism is a thing and that it's outrageous, that's what we have been saying since the beginning but you were the one fighting against it. Shame you are aiming the ableist comments at the wrong people and targeting your anger at the wrong things.

Yes, Yes I do not know what invisible disability look like, I know nothing about Chron's despite my grandpa and one of my best friends having it, I do not know anything about Ankylosing spondilitis and polyarthritis despite my mum suffering from it and me recently showing symptoms of it too, I do not know what someone who is deaf from what once was a brain tumor looks like despite my grandma suffering from it, I absolutely have no clue what invisible disability look like, AT ALL. Happy?

I didn't think you were lying because your answers didn't fit with what I expected a disable person to say, I thought you might be lying because you were purposefully being goady and twisting everything and refusing to acknowledge anything but your own feelings. The thing is, if your disability affect your understanding of certain topics (which is fair), and people repeatedly ask you or tell you '' hey. that's not what I meant, are you sure you have read properly and understood what I said?" and your answer is either to ignore the question or repeat '' it's not my job'' or other things that are purposefully missing the point without acknowledging that indeed there is a possibility you might have misread and misunderstood or not fully grasp what was said because of your disability (which you are entitled not to want to confirm) then you are opening yourself for people to assume you are being purposefully and intentionally goady and trolling.

You can't come back here after refusing for 100 posts to acknowledge your disability affects your ability to process information despite being asked 100 times (which is fine, and again you are entitled to do) and now use it against us and being ''Well you should have KNOWN I can't process information properly due to having a disability I absolutely hadn't defined until about 5 minutes ago, because you obviously are telepaths and how ableist of you to assume based on my refusal to answer that I was fine and didn't have impairments. You should have known better.'' No, no I shouldn't have known better and no it isn't ableist to assume that if when asked repeatedly if you have trouble understanding and following the thread (regardless of the reason) and you happen to say no repeatedly that you indeed do not have comprehension impairments and are likely just being goady.

I know what invisible disability looks like, I thought you were being goady because nobody derails a thread to makes it about disability and then throw their hand up in the air and say '' But I don't want to talk about disability though, just wanted to stop people from talking about race.'' apart from you, unfortunately

I didn't base my opinion of your credibility on able-bodied people but on all the disable people (invisible and non-invisible) I know because they would not have reacted that way at all (I have had similar talks with them all several times and none has ever been offended/reacted your way) and probably would have assumed you were goady too. Every single invisibly disable person I know, would jump at the chance of having a space to express their story as disable individuals and none of them would dare derail a thread about racism/white privileges, but if they did to talk about disability instead, they would absolutely talk about disability. None of them would do what you did, of derailing an important thread to talk about something you then refused to talk about because that's rude, and most disable people (regardless of diagnoses) can (and do) grasps that.

So no, no ableist comparison here, just disbelief that someone purposefully managed to derail a thread to talk about her at great length, for reasons still obscure to me/most.

@Warsawa31

I really dislike that people have additional issues just going about their day to day lives.

I do think “white privilege“ should be Rebranded as “majority privilege” it’s not fair to make people feel shame about their skin colour. Changing demographics mean that white people aren't in the majority In some parts of the U.K. other majority populations around the world have privilege or the advantage of belonging to a culture where their ancestors Established The norms.

We label people as much as possible, nothing seems to be private anymore - I get the sentiment and trying to help people but this is a cruel and really dangerous way of doing it. You can expect people to constantly degrade themselves and admit that they are privileged even when they are not without creating resentment.

We are stuck in viewing the world through this insane oppression hierarchy where power is everything.

We are not equal we never have been and we never will be - it’s impossible unless we are all clones.

But that would not work though ''majority privilege'' would be bullshit.

Technically speaking (or well statistically speaking) people of color are the majority worldwide. White people aren't, yet despite being the minority statistically they are the ones who have managed to colonize, enslave, steal and eradicate the majority ALL OVER THE PLANET and are still holding the power now.

Acknowledging your privileges is only shameful if you are unwilling to appreciate that privileges are a fact but that it's not necessarily your fault (you didn't pick to be white), there is nothing cruel about acknowledging privileges unless you see it as some sort of loss of power.

I am gay, mixed race and a woman, surely I am not the most privileged person around the block YET I have NO issue whatsoever acknowledging my privileges:

• I am European (therefore have a powerful passport that grant me access to most countries for both leisure and work)
• I am mixed race, therefore lighter skin than black individuals which also allow me some privileges above them.
• I am overall healthy, which gives me a certain privileges over disable people
• I am a gay WOMAN, which makes me slightly less likely to experience violent homophobic crime than gay men or trans individuals.
• I am NOT religious which means I won't be discriminated for being Jewish or Muslim or any other religion.

Acknowledging my privileges, isn't cruel, it isn't a chore, it isn't self-harming, but it is ABSOLUTELY fundamental to do in order to spark changes. If I don't acknowledge my privileges, even as a queer woman of color, then I am choosing to remain oblivious to Important issues like colorism, Xenophobia, Antisemitism, Islamophobia etc...

Gay woman of color aren't the majority, yet we are still privileged. Privileges have nothing to do with numbers but with power. There are way less rich people than there is poor in the world yet richer folks are the one with the most privilege. Privileges aren't measured in quantity but in power imbalance.

No, no I shouldn't have known better and no it isn't ableist to assume that if when asked repeatedly if you have trouble understanding and following the thread (regardless of the reason) and you happen to say no repeatedly that you indeed do not have comprehension impairments and are likely just being goady.

Do you expect anyone that you have contact with to disclose a disability to you? Why should they? Right there is a prime example of the difficulties that s person with a disability faces - constantly having to disclose, to explain, to justify, to educate.

The idea that someone might have an invisible disability simply doesn't occur to most people and so our behaviour is viewed through a non disabled lens and we're assumed to be uneducated, rude, lazy, etc. I shouldn't have to give my entire medical history by way of explaining myself. If you doubted whether I was a troll or not then you should have reported me to MN, which is the right way of doing it.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

No, no I shouldn't have known better and no it isn't ableist to assume that if when asked repeatedly if you have trouble understanding and following the thread (regardless of the reason) and you happen to say no repeatedly that you indeed do not have comprehension impairments and are likely just being goady.

Do you expect anyone that you have contact with to disclose a disability to you? Why should they? Right there is a prime example of the difficulties that s person with a disability faces - constantly having to disclose, to explain, to justify, to educate.

The idea that someone might have an invisible disability simply doesn't occur to most people and so our behaviour is viewed through a non disabled lens and we're assumed to be uneducated, rude, lazy, etc. I shouldn't have to give my entire medical history by way of explaining myself. If you doubted whether I was a troll or not then you should have reported me to MN, which is the right way of doing it.

Sigh.

I am not going to address something that has been, addressed, explained, acknowledged and re-explained to you a 100 times.

I invite you to re-read my posts at your absolute leisure as many times as you feel like until you realize that all those point have ALL already been addressed, answered and acknowledged and that all the answers to this post (and the dozens other you made in the last couple of hours) are there.

Good night/day. x

The post I read that has had the most profound affect in explaining white privilege was a man who said that he won't walk around his middle class suburb without his young daughter. With a child he's "just another local dad" and without her he's a potential criminal.

I couldn't imagine my husband being seen as a criminal if he walked round our neighbourhood on his own.

And the worse thing is that I would be one of those people and I don't know how to change myself.

@AlphaDalpha

The post I read that has had the most profound affect in explaining white privilege was a man who said that he won't walk around his middle class suburb without his young daughter. With a child he's "just another local dad" and without her he's a potential criminal.

I couldn't imagine my husband being seen as a criminal if he walked round our neighbourhood on his own.

And the worse thing is that I would be one of those people and I don't know how to change myself.

What do you mean by ''I would be one of those people'' AlphaDalpha? Do you mind developing? Are you refering to people who assume others are criminals based on look or something else entirely? Couldn't quite grasp what that part was referring to.

How can we make everyone equal when we aren’t? We do a fairly decent job of accommodating society based around a general norm which most people fall into- eg able bodied people - and adapting the norms to suit people who are disabled.

All I’m saying is we aren’t born equal at all, no amount of fighting for rights will ever change that. Skin colour should be a non issue but we don’t stop going on about it giving it power . We label ourselves white and black and Asian and gay and Muslim Christian etc and wonder why we have so many differences we can’t seem to get over. We can restructure our world to let go of all of the labels and falsehoods but we won’t. So By all means keep fighting the pointless fight Which can never be Settled.