... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

That is what the average student attains... so that is expected progress.

That wasn't how we looked at it. We looked at it in terms of expected levels of progress.

Levels of 5 A* - C were looked at separately.

However you look at it data for individual groups was looked at separately so SEN, FSM,BAME, boys, girls, EAL, White working class boys - we didn't just look at it as white boys or white girls etc. Each group was looked at individually when we drilled down.

The point being, if intervention is required in schools it should be for the groups who need it the most - whoever that is.

@hearhoovesthinkzebra that isn’t the discussion though is it?
The best measure for what you are trying to measure is “value added”. That went out ages ago.

[quote SoVeryLost]@hearhoovesthinkzebra that isn’t the discussion though is it?
The best measure for what you are trying to measure is “value added”. That went out ages ago.[/quote]
And I was a governor ages ago.

Point remains - help should be given to whoever needs it.

@Linning great posts

*I am under no illusion that it privileges me above black/darker individuals, so if we HAD to treat issues in order of importancy (we don’t + who quantifies importancy anyway) then I would absolutely advocate for the issues with black/darker individuals to be dealt with first before my own issues as a biracial individuals.

Not sure why this poster seem to struggle with the fact that even within blackness there are different struggles based on melanin levels and skin tones.*

And yes I agree 100%. Being darker skinned I noticed this from around age 5. Lighter skinned black people have considerably more privilege than dark.

Basically white people invented a whole racist colour system and brainwashed every other race to play into it and even mean races turn on their own to comply with the system. Very painfully sad.

The Indian caste system came into play BC and is related to Hinduism

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I will ALWAYS do my part in fighting for disable rights,

Whilst considering them to be disposable, waste of resources and space. » due to their inability, for the most part, to participate in society in ways that are gauge valuable by the system.?

Lol. I love how you don’t read posts and yet manage to be offended.

Had you READ the post (and you should) you would know that the words doesn’t fit my vision but fit how SOCIETY and the SYSTEM sees you do you deny that, there is ableism because people see disable folks as disposable? That’s what I explained. I NEVER said it’s okay, in fact had you READ you would see I said it’s disgusting appalling and needs to stop and be dealt with AT THE SAME scale as racism because it matters as much. But so much easier to be outraged at things people don’t say.

You are the only one demanding more respect and attention than the rest of us here.

Stop making it about you and if you can’t stop at the very least stop pretending you care.

I have already acknowledged that not every disable person can protest or make a stance and not all of them can protest or make a stance in a similar way, I have also gone at great length as to explain why it is still important that disable people are at the forefront of their own right.

If you aren’t willing to read post, stop replying to them and make arguments that have already been answered and explained in the posts you quote

@daisydukes7576

*I am under no illusion that it privileges me above black/darker individuals, so if we HAD to treat issues in order of importancy (we don’t + who quantifies importancy anyway) then I would absolutely advocate for the issues with black/darker individuals to be dealt with first before my own issues as a biracial individuals.

Not sure why this poster seem to struggle with the fact that even within blackness there are different struggles based on melanin levels and skin tones.*

And yes I agree 100%. Being darker skinned I noticed this from around age 5. Lighter skinned black people have considerably more privilege than dark.

Basically white people invented a whole racist colour system and brainwashed every other race to play into it and even mean races turn on their own to comply with the system. Very painfully sad.

Exactly, as someone mixed race I was made to distance myself from my African background to fit in and was always very conscious that the fairer my skin the better.

It’s interesting that some people struggle with wanting to separate people of color when it comes to tackling race and other issues. We have ALWAYS been separated by skin tone and therefore face different issues, when one focuses on black people it’s not that they say my “life/issues don’t matter” it’s that they acknowledge that even within the black community, the value put on whiteness has created divide and privileges for some of us. Again I am under no illusion that as of today, my life is still perceived as having more value than the one or darker black people. That’s thoroughly problematic and why, unfortunately, to fully tackle racism we do need to tackle it in layer and can’t accurately lump POC as one unique group that racism affect in the same manner.

Linning

I read what you wrote.

Clearly that's your view of people with a disability.

You also explained how racism was worse and how disabled people need to advocate for themselves and that society views them as disposable.

Ok.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Linning

I read what you wrote.

Clearly that's your view of people with a disability.

You also explained how racism was worse and how disabled people need to advocate for themselves and that society views them as disposable.

Ok.

Do you mind quoting me or clearly in you world ''Clearly'' stands for ''What I invented in my head and try to pass as the truth.'' , the fact that only YOU are offended by my post (on a forum that counts plenty of members with disability and/or with children with disability) should tell you that you either failed to read or or failed to understand it properly.

I said Racism and Ableism, aren't comparable. I didn't say Racism was worse. I said they don't have the same roots and don't work the same way, they AREN'T comparable.

You wouldn't compare Slavery to the Shoah would you? Both are terrible. Neither is worse, neither is better, there are BOTH awful historical events but they AREN'T comparable. Not because one is worse than the others or less damaging than the others, but because they stemmed from different roots (racism vs antisemetism), in history they have translated differently and currently they STILL translate differently, both Jews and Black people suffer prejudice and have been murdered, killed and raped for who they are but it doesn't mean that their story is the same or that those abuse have translated or happened in the same way/fashion.

That's my point with Ableism and Racism, they are both bad but the history of Racism and Ableism AREN'T comparable, they have nothing to do with each other, not because one is less bad than the other but because they stem from different feelings and roots.

If you can't deal with facts, I suggest you log off the internet.

As someone who is disable, do you NOT feel like sometimes people treat you as if your life doesn't matter or matters less and is more disposable? isn't THAT the root of Ableism? If you have never felt that way that is GREAT, embrace it, I am genuinely glad as I would not wish for you to feel that way ever, but unfortunately, plenty of my disable friends have been made to feel that way by both the system and society. The fact that society feels a certain way about certain group of people (disable for example) doesn't mean I agree with it or think it's okay, me disagreeing doesn't stop it being a fact though?
The same way it's a fact that society usually see black lives as less valuable and more disposable than White lives or even Mixed-race lives. It's outrageous but it's STILL a FACT.

If you are outraged by those facts (and you should be!) then you understand how important it is to fight a system that think this way and have conditioned to perceive disable AND people of color as disposable and worth less.

Now if you feel offended by the fact that I state FACTS and my suggestion that you probably no more about your OWN disability than me (an able-bodied person with no disability) then that's on you but that's absolutely bonkers. And thankfully most disable people I know appreciate the fact that I would rather listen to their struggle and act on their knowledge than make wrongful assumptions.

fight a system that think this way and have conditioned society* to perceive disable AND people of color as disposable and worth less.

As someone who is disable, do you NOT feel like sometimes people treat you as if your life doesn't matter or matters less and is more disposable?

You're the first person who has made me feel.like that.

You say that disabled people should state what they need and you will listen. Try saying that about racism - I feel that it should be for black people to say what they need and that we should then join with them to.fight for it yet many other people on this site will tell you that white people must educate themselves and work out what needs to be changed. So why shouldn't you have to educate yourself about disabilities and how society nerds to change? Maybe don't tell disabled people that society views them as being disposable would be a start.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

As someone who is disable, do you NOT feel like sometimes people treat you as if your life doesn't matter or matters less and is more disposable?

You're the first person who has made me feel.like that.

You say that disabled people should state what they need and you will listen. Try saying that about racism - I feel that it should be for black people to say what they need and that we should then join with them to.fight for it yet many other people on this site will tell you that white people must educate themselves and work out what needs to be changed. So why shouldn't you have to educate yourself about disabilities and how society nerds to change? Maybe don't tell disabled people that society views them as being disposable would be a start.

If this is your first time being made to feel that way or being made aware of the fact, you are very privileged (which is good) and I am glad, there is LITERALLY a thread trending on AIBU as we speak about how Autistic folks are made to feel like they don’t matter. I don’t need to make disable folks aware of the system and society they live in, most unfortunately very much already know, you just so happen to be one of the very rare one who obviously doesn’t, which is fine, but you very much aren’t the norm within the disable world. (Anyone who read about the Shoah would know about the vision of disable people within society from certain able-bodied folks, if they haven’t experienced it first hand, which unfortunately most do).

I have already said (again had you read you would know that) that it is MY responsibility to educate myself about my privileges regarding being-able bodied. I stand by the fact that there is no way to know how YOUR disability affects you specifically until you tell me. I can learn about every disability it doesn’t mean every disable person is the same and have the same need.

I actually can’t believe I have to tell YOU, a disable person, that you probably will always know your own disability and needs better than ME, an able-bodied person, surely most disable folks would agree with that. Though according to you I should read article about Autism and other types of disability and self-declare myself as an Expert who knows better and is entitled to talk on behalf of disable folks. That is absolutely bizarre.

All you say “I should try and say” I have already said and addressed. What about you try and READ and stick to what is written for once instead of giving it your own twist and flawed interpretation.

I know only too well the issues of living with disability in a world built for able bodied people but I have never had an individual make me feel that my life is disposable - until you raised it here. I have to adapt what I do every day - where I go, how I get there, will there be stairs, how far will I have to walk, will there be toilets, am I going to be ill, will I have go stand for long, will I lose my job.

That's not the same as being confronted with the idea that your life is considered disposable. So, yes, you should educate yourself about issues that disabled people face, about attitudes that we come up against, about how the world is built for people who don't have disabilities. Maybe refrain from telling people that their life is disposable too.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

I know only too well the issues of living with disability in a world built for able bodied people but I have never had an individual make me feel that my life is disposable - until you raised it here. I have to adapt what I do every day - where I go, how I get there, will there be stairs, how far will I have to walk, will there be toilets, am I going to be ill, will I have go stand for long, will I lose my job.

That's not the same as being confronted with the idea that your life is considered disposable. So, yes, you should educate yourself about issues that disabled people face, about attitudes that we come up against, about how the world is built for people who don't have disabilities. Maybe refrain from telling people that their life is disposable too.

Well good thing I NEVER said I saw disable people as disposable then.

You have exactly defined why the system works in ways that shows that disable folks are, for the most part (whether consciously or subconsciously) an after-thought to most able-bodies in society. The lack of accessible places being one. Surely if it’s your everyday life I do not need to point out to you.

The fact that you chose to get upset about something that is a fact and you obviously knew and know about and is extremely problematic instead of wanting to be an active participant in the solution, is quite mind-boggling to me.

It seems to me like even though you are disable you have absolutely NO interest in being involved in your cause, let alone the one of other minorities and instead just felt like throwing yourself a self-pity party. It’s fine, but can we stop pretending you are advocating for anything when you have purposefully failed to address ANY of the good points I made about both systemic racism, white privileges AND disability + failed to provide information as to how you feel the disable community could be helped and instead just pretended to be offended for things I either didn’t say or pretended never to have been made aware of before, derailed the thread and brought absolutely zero value to the topic at hand. You managed to divert a thread about white privileges and systemic racism into a thread about disability all while refusing to talk about disability (because according to you able-bodied folks should know better about disabilities than disable folks themselves and therefore it’s not your job) but talking about you and your feelings instead.

Now you have got enough attention about you and your feelings and it’s clear you have no interest in bringing anything of value to the original thread/topic nor the one you intended to bring forward (disabilities/ableism) can we go back to the topic at hand (white privileges and systemic racism)? Thank you.

It's not my job to educate you about disability.

@Linning You've made excellent points so much here but I suspect your efforts are truly wasted talking with someone who either seems to have trouble with comprehension or flat out refuses to engage in good faith, wriggling out of every sensible point with faux offence and mind-boggling irrelevant defence. It's like hitting one's head against a brick wall. I'm no longer engaging and even I, as the reader and observer, am frustrated on your behalf.

When your words about disabled people were twisted to claim it IS how you feel despite you making it so very clear that they weren't your views right before and after you wrote them, I virtually threw my papers, pen and cup of tea up in the air and gave up.

Please know some are reading and taking notes, even if some just like hearing the sound of their own voice or shall I say, enjoy writing their thoughts and being understood but not necessarily reading and understanding others'.

It's not faux offence.

I don't believe people who hide behind "oh it's not me who thinks like this, but some people think that...of course I don't agree".

I don't think it's ok to write something like that, even if you deny it's what you think and claim it's what society thinks.

There's literally nothing there to engage with, other than the view that people with disabilities should advocate for themselves, which very clearly we do where we can, but ultimately it's just an excuse.

I'll leave you to it.

[quote IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]@Linning You've made excellent points so much here but I suspect your efforts are truly wasted talking with someone who either seems to have trouble with comprehension or flat out refuses to engage in good faith, wriggling out of every sensible point with faux offence and mind-boggling irrelevant defence. It's like hitting one's head against a brick wall. I'm no longer engaging and even I, as the reader and observer, am frustrated on your behalf.

When your words about disabled people were twisted to claim it IS how you feel despite you making it so very clear that they weren't your views right before and after you wrote them, I virtually threw my papers, pen and cup of tea up in the air and gave up.

Please know some are reading and taking notes, even if some just like hearing the sound of their own voice or shall I say, enjoy writing their thoughts and being understood but not necessarily reading and understanding others'.[/quote]
Don’t worry, based on her answers to other posters and to you, I already knew I was going to be confronted to a wall.

The current black live matter protests seem to get a lot of people like her out of the woodwork with “BUT What about ME???” outrage and when one bothers to pause and ask “Yes, what about you, What do you need? How can we help? What are your struggles?” Being met with “ Well... uh, it’s not MY job to tell you what I need, I don’t even know what I need, YOU tell ME, I just didn’t want the attention to be on you.”

It’s childish and pointless but yet, here they are, willingly making a fool of themselves, left, right and center.

It would be funny if their narcissism didn’t take away from very much needed attention and important issues that need tackling.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

It's not faux offence.

I don't believe people who hide behind "oh it's not me who thinks like this, but some people think that...of course I don't agree".

I don't think it's ok to write something like that, even if you deny it's what you think and claim it's what society thinks.

There's literally nothing there to engage with, other than the view that people with disabilities should advocate for themselves, which very clearly we do where we can, but ultimately it's just an excuse.

I'll leave you to it.

OPEN AN HISTORY BOOK.

Talking about the hard, uncomfortable TRUTH is what leads to progress, and to people questioning their privileges and in your case, ableism.

If you said “ well as a disable person I don’t feel like my needs are being met nor fully accepted by society” and I answered “ I don’t believe that, everyone LOVES disable folks, they are the most precious members of society, nobody would dare hurt them or do anything to prejudice them, how dare you imply we would? Look around, plenty of disable folks living happily as a full part of society, buses have ramps, as do a lot of buildings, we really really do love them, stop implying we don’t care about the disable when we obviously do.”

Would you find it helpful? Would that make you feel better? Would it help your cause as well as the one of other disabled folks?

One needs to talk about how fucked up the system and most people’s mentality is to confront with the reality of how fucked up the system/society truly is.

Yes I could burry my head in the sand, like you, and hope one day somehow the world I want to live in become reality or I can acknowledge that I need to confront the uncomfortable stuff head on and deal with it from the core.

If what I said only makes you uncomfortable and slightly upset, BE GRATEFUL, for some disable folks the reality of what I said (because as much as we BOTH find it appalling it IS a reality), is what has led to a lot of them being tortured (lobotomy/sexual abuse/assault) and killed, en mass (again take a look at WW2).

If you can’t bypass your own discomfort to make a stance, that’s fine but realize that you are part of the problem.

I don’t need nor asked you to educate me on disability. If you aren’t keen to express to people what type of help you would benefit from it’s up to YOU (and I hope you will have the decency not to complain if your needs aren’t ever being met as a result), but don’t stop US, or anyone for doing our part and having slightly more fight in us and making a stance.

Feel free to bury your head as much as you want and be outraged by reality while continuing to do nothing to make the world a better place or even more bearable place for you and others, but PLEASE don’t stand in the middle of people actually wanting and willing to make a change and/or educate themselves and derail valid and vital information and threads to make it about you.

@linning don’t feed the troll. Read through the last four pages. They weave and twist so even when you get them to concede they twist it around into another denial. They have literally said in this thread that they have been othered by people all the time. Also I find it incredibly interesting that they have chosen to misrepresent what you have said to make is offensive when you are a mixed race person.

[quote SoVeryLost]@linning don’t feed the troll. Read through the last four pages. They weave and twist so even when you get them to concede they twist it around into another denial. They have literally said in this thread that they have been othered by people all the time. Also I find it incredibly interesting that they have chosen to misrepresent what you have said to make is offensive when you are a mixed race person.[/quote]
Anything else wouldn't fit with their narrative of them being the victim of their own story, really.

The only thing I hope is that this poster didn't actually lie about being disable to troll and derail the thread, that would be incredibly offensive (!) though honestly, based on the answers they gave (that are so far remote from anything coherent and believable) I struggle to believe that they are genuine in anything they say/have said as no one genuine would manage to contradict themselves so much and pretend it would be in any shape reasonable to expect able people to have more knowledge about disability than the people experience it and that we would make better advocates than the people affected themselves.

(Now patiently waiting for them to come back to point out how offensive it is to imply they might have faked being disable as if no one in the world has ever been outrageous enough before as to fake being disabled to derail a thread )

Honestly, it must be quite stressful to feel the need to be offended by the smallest things all the time, couldn't mentally go through it I think. So kudos to them for surviving a visibly intense amount of (unnecessary) stress.

The only thing I hope is that this poster didn't actually lie about being disable

Check my posting history. You can go through it and see the various times where I've spoken about it. Even my user name refers to disability.

I have Crohn's disease which has caused enteropathic arthritis.

I have ehlers danlos syndrome which is a connective tissue disorder that causes my joints to dislocate and has also affected my heart. I've also got dysautonomia, again caused by EDS, which affects my autonomic nervous system. As I said, check my posting history.

The only thing I hope is that this poster didn't actually lie about being disable

You know this was my next line of response if I was going to do so. From some of what was said in this poster's response to me (and what wasn't said) and what was also said in response to you (and what wasn't said), I began to suspect a false claim of disability just to be on the disadvantaged end of something, in this case ableism and able-bodied privilege.

This poster has already shown clearly that they'll say anything to make unnecessary points, so why not this one? It's not far-fetched. We're online, anyone can claim to be anything or anyone. I take people's word for what they say but never see it as the absolute truth because it's the internet.

Like you said, I expect another outrage at what's been said now (what else is new🙄) but atleast that would be the first time the poster takes offence at something that was actually said, not made up in their head. I reckon if the poster can accuse claim others said something they didn't, I can as well accuse claim the poster has made me suspicious of their disability claim.

No one has to prove they are disabled or not btw, you don't owe me. I haven't outrightly accused anyone (as this poster did) but I'm simply suspicious, that's all.