... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

So should feminism have been fought for poor men? You want BAME people to fight for you but you are unwilling to do the same. Or is it that you don’t personally see the benefit? I hazard that a more equal society will actually benefit all participants.

Who says that I am not fighting for BAME people? I absolutely am. 100%. The problem is that the BLM movement isn't about BAME. It is only about black people, and so if you say you are supporting BAME you are accused of saying all lives matter. Four threads over the weekend, posted by the same person making this very clear - it isn't about BAME people, it's about black people.

So if it's about black people, can you not support black people there as well as other ethnic minorities elsewhere? It does say black lives matter (BLM), not black and minority ethnicities lives matter, so to support blm, you're supporting that black lives matter or should they also do what you prefer by adding "and other ethnic minorities" before you support them?

Do you have a problem with supporting only black people on this particular issue? Must you add others to a single cause?

@IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme

I pointed it out to you because you're pointing out to white people how blind we are to our privilege and how we must change that and open our eyes to it. I was merely pointing out to you that before pointing fingers at others maybe you should look at your own privilege blindness.

It doesn't make sense you pointing out to me what I've already pointed out right from my OP. It only looks like you're trying very hard to point out every other privilege (actually this one privilege because it affects you, see the irony) except white privilege. This is what black people are trying to get white people to do: accept that there's white privilege. That's all, recognise it. Those who can, then work with them to do something about levelling the playing field for the disadvantaged in this particular field.

Do you accept that there is? Or do you want to keep pointing out able bodied privilege when there's no need since everybody accepts this?

At this point, we're going round in circles and I find it hard to believe it's because you don't really get it. You do, you just don't want to admit it because you believe somehow this will take something away from you.

Of course I understand it. I certainly don't understand the riots, the calling for police to be disbanded or defunded. I also don't see why it's suddenly become ok to force people to support your cause, to compel speech or to compel people to take a public stance in the form of taking a knee.

People have different priorities. I support an end to racism. I support every BAME person and I will speak out if I ever witness racism. But I have my own struggles and my own battles. I'm not about to start compelling every person to support my cause, to protest with me, to speak in a certain way or to kneel down in front of me. Disabled people as a group are the most vulnerable and discriminated group in society and so that's where my focus is. That doesn't take anything away from the BLM movement though.

@IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme

So if it's about black people, can you not support black people there as well as other ethnic minorities elsewhere? It does say black lives matter (BLM), not black and minority ethnicities lives matter, so to support blm, you're supporting that black lives matter or should they also do what you prefer by adding "and other ethnic minorities" before you support them?

Do you have a problem with supporting only black people on this particular issue? Must you add others to a single cause?

And there's my point proven.

Privilege exists, most definitely.
But white privilege is far from universal and it’s really majority privilege seen from a euro-centric perspective (and I’m including the former European colonies in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand in this as they have inherited that same euro-centric mind set).

I think it would be better understood if it were phrased in a more universal fashion as majority privilege. Male privilege- universal. Rich privilege- universal. Able bodied privilege- universal.

White privileged? Only applies to 10% of the global population. But to those 10%, they think they are the centre of the universe and most important part of the world. They are the “1st world countries” and other names they’ve made up for themselves to denote their supposed superiority over the rest of the world.

White privileged? Only applies to 10% of the global population. But to those 10%, they think they are the centre of the universe and most important part of the world. They are the “1st world countries” and other names they’ve made up for themselves to denote their supposed superiority over the rest of the world.

And there's my point proven.

What point? That you can only support one cause? That you can't support black people alone on one side (blm) and support BAME as well on another side, so you've chosen to support BAME as a whole but not black people alone (You do know they are different issues?)? That there mustn't be one cause (specifically when it comes to race but fine when it's disability) unless other causes are attached to it?

Is that your point proven because that's what I asked.

If we are only concentrating on Black Lives, which sort of Black? Just so I am clear.

Caribbean, African or Black British?

I have a feeling it is Caribbean only because, for example, Black African children perform at the exact same levels as White British children. It is the Caribbean children who underperform compared to white British.

Pakistani, Chinese and Bangleshi children outperform White British.

It's hard to find the 'colour of skin' argument on this.

Oh and I've yet to see where anyone is forcing you to support their cause and ignore every other cause.

Imo it's perfectly fine if people have their own causes and support others from a distance (if they so want to) without being in the front lines. It's natural. Not everyone can actively support for various reasons. I haven't seen where someone is forced to actively do something about blm when they can't.

@IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme

And there's my point proven.

What point? That you can only support one cause? That you can't support black people alone on one side (blm) and support BAME as well on another side, so you've chosen to support BAME as a whole but not black people alone (You do know they are different issues?)? That there mustn't be one cause (specifically when it comes to race but fine when it's disability) unless other causes are attached to it?

Is that your point proven because that's what I asked.

My point is about compelled speech.

I have been talking about disability, about all people who have a disability, not about one specific disability and then insisting that everyone supports that disability.

Fundamentally I have an issue with the organisation BLM, as I think many people do. I don't agree with some of their aims, as listed on their website, and I don't support some of the behaviours that we've witnessed - riots, looting, attacking police officers, the many people who've been killed in the USA in the course of this.

I choose to support an end to racism and will support any BAME person who needs my support. I'm not going to be compelled to say or do something by any group of people. We live in a free country and I have that right.

Oh and I've yet to see where anyone is forcing you to support their cause and ignore every other cause.

Really? You haven't seen protesters forcing police officers to take a knee?

You're trying to force me into saying that I support BLM rather than saying I support all BAME people. Why do you think that's ok?

You're trying to force me into saying that I support BLM rather than saying I support all BAME people. Why do you think that's ok?

This is your problem, taking each single line as a personal affront, claiming people are forcing you to do something when no one has. When I say I haven't seen where you have been forced, you cite people forcing police as an example that you have been forced, then claim I also forced you to support blm when I've stated many times that people are allowed to support what they want.

You've only just right now finally stated you don't support blm and stated your reasons (you were being evasive about what/who you support, saying BAME but not blm so I was asking based on what you did write) and I truly believe you have that right to support or not support who you want. Just admit it from the onset if you want to state it, so we avoid going on about blm, which by the way you started.

Right, circles, me, going round. Nice engaging with you.

Why should I have to state who lot what I support?

I support black people (as well as Asian and minority ethnic people) but I don't support the organisation that calls themselves BLM because I don't support their ideology around family and the police.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

*White boys as a whole underperform white girls for example yet still they often end up in positions of power over those who they underperformed. This is the issue with people not actually looking at the data they want to use to prove their point.*

White working class boys are a specific data set, looked at separately by schools, OFSTED, etc because they were identified as underperforming. You can't just lump all white boys together because specific groups within that are being failed.

We also look at other sub groups too - children with SEN, FSM and so on. We don't just include them within white girls or BAME boys because they have separate needs and separate vulnerabilities. It's not twisting data, it is using specific data groups as they were intended - to identify specific needs for specific groups.

All white boys perform worse on average then white girls. I’ve looked at the stats enough. Back when there was secondary moderns and grammar schools, the girls pass mark was higher than boys as it was thought boys developed later than boys. This wasn’t true. Yet still men still hold more senior positions. Im not looking at a specific set of data intended to prove poor children are disadvantaged Im looking at the whole data set.

SoVeryLost

But it's not just whether boys perform less well than girls, it's whether a group of students are underperforming against their own predicted grades. So girls might average a 7 at GCSE English and boys a 6. Based on that girls did better than boys. But if you look at predicted grades girls maybe should have got 8 and boys 5. So, on that data girls underperformed and boys achieved better than expected.

That's a very basic example I know but it's not just looking at achievement it's looking at attainment.

The fact that men then go on to achieve higher in the workplace is more to do with sexism within society and the workplace than it is racism.isnt it?

The fact that men then go on to achieve higher in the workplace is more to do with sexism within society and the workplace than it is racism.isnt it?

Women tend to achieve at similar levels as men with the same background until they have kids. There are a few ways to think about that and whether it's sexism or just a difference of outcome, but I think it suggests that as far as being in a position to do well and become educated, they are pretty equal.

White unkilled boys though tend to grow up to be among the most economically vulnerable adults. A lot of the jobs that used to go to this group are not so common now, or have changed and require more training.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Linning

Thank you for your reply.

It's interesting that you suggest disabled people campaign in other ways ie petitions, writing articles and so on - I thought the reason why BLM protesters are marching, pulling down statues, rioting etc was because it's the only way to bring change and to be listened to - if petitions and other things work then why aren't BLM pushing for change using them?

You also say that it's for disabled people to identify what they need and what changes they need, that able bodied people can't do it for them because they don't know what they need - that's correct. But why are BLM saying it's up to white people to identify and make the changes for black people? I've asked on threads on here and been told that it's white people who have caused this and so it's up to white people to change it and it's not down to black people to identify what needs to change, but how do we, as white people, know what you need? So far, the only change I've heard the BLM movement call for is defunding/disbanding the police, I haven't heard any other changes that are needed.

It’s because ableism hasn’t and isn’t perpetuated Historically and currently in the same way as racism.

Racism was invented by white people. Disability on the other hand is a condition, one is either born with or developed throughout their life, it isn’t a concept.

The following statement is going to be 100% ableist and it is purposeful as to show you my point and how society work and why ableism can’t be compared to racism and while they require different type of actions/engagement while both being similarly important issue that needs to be tackled with the same severity, but NOBODY benefits from disability, as of today, still , unfortunately, disable folks are seen by most of society (and definitely the system) as «disposable, waste of resources and space. » due to their inability, for the most part, to participate in society in ways that are gauge valuable by the system. It is absolutely appalling (and 100% needs to end)!and I felt disgusting typing it out but it needs to be said because that’s what marks the difference between racism and ableism.

Racism benefits white people, specifically white people in power, it has provided them for CENTURIES with free labour, more opportunities (if you keep people of the color at the bottom amd don’t have to share equal opportunities with them, there is no where else for white people to be but at the top), land, scapegoats and total impunity for crimes. There is a LOT of benefits to racism in white countries while there is no real way to benefit from Disable people in the same way, Ableism stems from the will of society not to want to have to accommodate for something they see as little value, it’s an awful school of thought and it definitely stems with a similar will for certain groups to want to give value and worth to individuals and treat them based on the value they feel they have.

The reason why Racism can’t be stopped with silent protesting is because it benefits the system too much, it’s easy to ignore. I am not saying people will listen to silent protests from disable people but the way POC are looked at vs disable people is different.

The system has worked in ways were POC of color are seen as problematic, black men are usually associated with crime and black women as full-mouthed, while disable folks are seen as those vulnerable being that need protecting. If you kick a black man you will find people digging into their police records and try and bring up things from 1986 as to why it’s not that bad. If you kick a disable man, nobody will try and figure out anything other than the fact the person is disable and it is awful.

History has been white washed and it looks like it’s hard for caucasian individuals to understand how systemic racism has dripped down and still impact people of color today, even if not on the same scale as 300 years ago.

Racism isn’t (that) complex in the way, disability is.
Again racism and segregation was created by White people for the most part, So yes it is the job of white people to inform themselves as to how they partake in a system that discriminate against sub-groups of people. The same way it is my job to inform myself about my privileges as an able-bodied individual. Racism has a pretty clear cut path as to how it could be mended/stopped, disabilities are unique and complex and cannot be understood by able-bodies on the same scale. I can understand that you need equal access but I cannot grasp what it means to YOU. I have no clue what your disability is, the needs of my invisibly disable friends is different to the ones of my blind friends or more physically disable friends which is still different to my autistic friends etc... what would provide you with more accessibility might absolutely not help another person with a different disability this is why it is paramount YOU advocate for yourself so WE (able-bodied) can do the work of ensuring we provide you with those changes. The same way we (people of color/gay people) are making requests but understand that it’s up to white/straight people to help us achieve that (again they are the one in power and with the power of making those changes).

I suggest you inform yourself on what POC need and want, BLM is ONE movement, it doesn’t represent every single black person or person of color and there is a lot black people/people of color have asked for beyond defunding the police.
It’s also important to acknowledge that the situation here in the US requires different changes (probably more drastic) than places like the UK.
You can’t say you support people of color, when you refuse to «stand» with them and support their will to have equal rights just because you don’t believe in an organization.

Racism is real, it isn’t about BLM or any organization. It’s about real lives of real people. You might not agree with what’s happening here (in the US) in terms of looting and stuff but had it not taken the turn it did, I strongly believe we wouldn’t have had the results we did. (It’s also important to acknowledge that what a lot of what was reported by media as actions from BLM during the protest have now been found out to be committed by WHITE extremist people from internal terrorist groups, including the murder of 2 officers) again, the situation in the US is pretty bad, I live in a very (probably the most actually) liberal part of the US and people have been hanging out Nose on trees around parks as threats and quite a few black people have been found hanging in the last couple of days around the US.

Be outraged by the looting if you want but PLEASE be more outraged by the killing of innocent people based on racial prejudice and by systemic racism.

I will ALWAYS do my part in fighting for disable rights, despite having to deal with systemic racism and homophobia on a daily basis, because I genuinely believe that until there is freedom and rights for all, there is no liberation. Do your part, at your scale. Don’t ask for others to fight your battle while acknowledging you can’t be bothered to fight theirs and barely wanting to fight yours either.

And please please educate yourself. Racism, xenophobia, ableism, antisemitism, they all might come across as similar but they are all rooted into the system in different ways and require different actions. Educate yourself in how you can help at your scale and do your part. You might not have the power to help all cause nor the will nor energy/capacities, but being aware and trying is better than living in oblivion. Every battle is important, we all agree, that’s why we should ALL do our part however much we can.

@hearhoovesthinkzebras thank you but you are still wrong.
It is against the average actually. It doesn’t look at predicted grade, it looks at how many of them make expected progress. Expected progress was 5A* -C including English and Maths. With progress 8 that has made it easier for you to get a high ‘score’ with really mediocre grades so long as you have a subject in each bucket.
You were one of the people saying sexism doesn’t exist either, so I was using the same data to ask you how that works. Are you purposely arguing in circles to wear me/us down?
Plenty of people have explained how white privilege can be seen. Yet still you keep coming back to WC white boys. Yes the system is also failing then but they do not experience the additional burden of having their race disadvantage them. Even when they use drugs and commit crimes at the same rate as their black peers they are less likely to be stopped and if they are they are and found to be carrying drugs they are less likely to get a custodial sentence. The stats prove that.

Outcomes at the end of GCSE’s only look at part of the picture. @hamstersarse was trying to disprove the research that shows teachers routinely mark down black children and over egg marks for Indian and Chinese students. That’s one way they face discrimination that we can prove easily. There are a multitude of other small seemingly innocuous ways were they are made to feel like they don’t belong. Why is it so impossible for you to see that? If this was a thread about disabled people I would say the same.

If we are only concentrating on Black Lives, which sort of Black? Just so I am clear.

[SMH]

We've got a long way to go here.

I should clarify my last point. If this thread was about disabled people being othered. I would also stand up and be counted. It’s not right no matter who it is happening to.

@SandyY2K

If we are only concentrating on Black Lives, which sort of Black? Just so I am clear.

[SMH]

We've got a long way to go here.

Was thinking the same thing.

I am bi-racial, my skin color is “light” brown.

I am under no illusion that it privileges me above black/darker individuals, so if we HAD to treat issues in order of importancy (we don’t + who quantifies importancy anyway) then I would absolutely advocate for the issues with black/darker individuals to be dealt with first before my own issues as a biracial individuals.

Not sure why this poster seem to struggle with the fact that even within blackness there are different struggles based on melanin levels and skin tones.

Sorry, as soon as I read this

unfortunately, disable folks are seen by most of society (and definitely the system) as «disposable, waste of resources and space. » due to their inability, for the most part, to participate in society in ways that are gauge valuable by the system.

and you proceeded to use it to justify why discriminating against disabled people isn't as bad as racism I'm out.

You then go on to state how disabled people must advocate for themselves - have you had a think about people who are profoundly disabled and can't advocate for themselves?

Sorry, but you cannot demand that anyone shows you any more respect or support than you are prepared to show them. I can't believe you considered for one second that what you write there was acceptable.

I will ALWAYS do my part in fighting for disable rights,

Whilst considering them to be disposable, waste of resources and space. » due to their inability, for the most part, to participate in society in ways that are gauge valuable by the system.?

Expected progress was 5A -C including English and Maths. With progress 8 that has made it easier for you to get a high ‘score’ with really mediocre grades so long as you have a subject in each*

This certainly wasn't the case when I was interrogating data - how can expected progress be gaining 5 A - C? Some students were never predicted to achieve A - C grades but they may well have still made expected progress.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Expected progress was 5A -C including English and Maths. With progress 8 that has made it easier for you to get a high ‘score’ with really mediocre grades so long as you have a subject in each*

This certainly wasn't the case when I was interrogating data - how can expected progress be gaining 5 A - C? Some students were never predicted to achieve A - C grades but they may well have still made expected progress.

That is what the average student attains... so that is expected progress. There are students who will obviously fall below that and students who will exceed that. The issue is that the average is lower in certain groups (FSM for example) so as a group their average is lower and that is what the data shows is true for black and white FSM boys.