... to wonder why some people think there's no white privilege?

[IAmAnAlienHumansfrightenme]

Of course there is. Why do people correlate white privilege with economic opportunities and financial status?

Privilege is the same thing as 'Advantage'.

A white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a black person and or person of ethnic minority.

A poor white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor black/BAME person.

A rich white person is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a rich black/BAME person.

A white person with disabilities or poor mental health is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a BAME person with the same condition.

Having white privilege doesn't mean you have no other problems in life neither does it mean you're financially comfortable, it means your skin colour isn't one of your problems. It's not something you're conscious of.

My answer is this is why I've written "generally". Meaning, generally speaking a white person doesn't have to think about their whiteness in the world. Yes there are exceptions to every rule. You may be one...just like not every black person experiences (overt) racism but the majority do.

White privilege is similar to:

Male privilege. A man is generally more privileged (at an advantage) than a woman in many ways. It's a man's world for now.

Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now).

Financial privilege. A rich person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a poor person. It's a rich person's world (for now).

Extrovert privilege. An extrovert is generally more privileged (at an advantage in society) than an Introvert. It's an extrovert's world.

Those with privilege just means society caters much more to them and others are trying to be heard or noticed as equals or gain the understanding, acceptance, provisions, etc that those privileged in their category have.
Some who are underprivileged (in whatever category) can and do face serious issues with safety, violence, etc.

A person can be both financially privileged and underprivileged as a woman or a BAME person. A person can have white privilege and also be underprivileged as a person with disabilities. There's plenty of privileges and lack of to go round.

When people say "I can't have white privilege because I've never noticed being treated differently"...that's the point. A privileged person almost never notices that advantage till they face the opposite disadvantage. Ever heard of a person born rich never realising how privileged they were till they faced hardship or witnessed other people's financial hardship? Or rich people sending their children to poorer places so they can experience a different lifestyle and value their privilege?

Sometimes, knowing that others are suffering is different from empathising with/feeling the effects of their suffering. The latter is what gets you to understand and accept the privilege you have.

Oh and lastly (a different point), being underprivileged in one or more areas doesn't automatically make you a good person. There are good and bad people in every category.

I've deliberately not mentioned my race, sex, ability, etc because it doesn't matter, my argument stands regardless.

What do you think?

@dobbleby

Imo as well there is huge issue with drugs & gang related crime that results in black boys killing each however drug use amongst the middle classes is seen as harmless...

And imo that's wrong. I get the impression though that the drug problem is completely out of control now and that there just would not be enough resources to arrest and charge everyone that buys drugs. Maybe they should look into decriminalisation of drugs.

How would that affect gangs, knife crime etc?

I think our inner cities are different entities to elsewhere in the country and its difficult for people to understand how it feels to live here. We should be able to feel safe going outside without fearing being mugged at knife point or afraid to challenge anyone on the street, for fear of being stabbed.

For people living here it's difficult hearing others call for an end to stop and search because what about people's right to go about their lives safely?

"Economic inequality is the biggest divider of people and frequently equates to poor outcomes but it's best people concentrate on anything else in case they get ideas above their station"

This.

...in the UK anyway. If you are 1st generation migrants to the country, from a lower socioeceomic clas, it surely is going be an uphill struggle to get a well paid job, live in a 'naice' area, near a good school wouldnt it impact on successive generations life opportunites quite significantly, so what on the face of it might appear to be issues with racial prejudice, might actually be issues with class/social mobility. We have significant numbers of multigenerational 'underclass' families. Once you are at the bottom of the heap it is very hard to get out climb out of it. The wealthy and powerful do not want a more equal society

@LonginesPrime

People talk about stop and search but the policy was changed wasn't it, certainly in London

The policy might have changed but racial profiling still happens in practice. It's still a problem for black people. But many white people obviously wouldn't be aware as they're not stopped for being black.

How are issues such as gangs, knife crimes, absent fathers caused by white privilege?

They're not caused by white privilege - they result from a complex range of factors that can be traced back to structural racial oppression. White privilege is merely what prevents that same structural oppression disadvantaging white people.

That's not to say that white people aren't disadvantaged by structural oppression - obviously many of them are. But the fact that white people often suffer similar consequences as BAME people doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist or that racism isn't a cause of disadvantage for BAME people - it merely means there are other factors that can cause those disadvantages in addition to race.

A way to look at is if white people, who aren't subject to racial oppression, have it so bad, imagine how challenging it must be for BAME people where those issues are compounded with racism. Which is where intersectionality comes in.

So, what stops many black youths from getting involved in gangs or knife crime?

Why do some white youths get involved in it?

It seems not me to be coming down to choices - either choices that parents make or choices kids make. My background is from a group of people who have known oppression for thousands of years - Jews. Yet we don't have a problem with gangs of Jewish youths stabbing people and each other so why?

It feels like there is much more to this than racism or white privilege. How can we change this going forward? What do organisations need to change, bearing in mind that they have to treat everyone fairly?

I’m sick of hearing about this. I think that BAME people have more power than they realise. ‘Oh I didn’t get the job, it’s obviously because I’m BAME’ Could it possibly be because you just weren’t good enough? I’m white and been turned down for 90% of jobs I’ve applied for and some have had people of ethnic minorities on the interview panel. I just shrug and this oh well. I have a disability and was told by my line manager ‘I would never Have employed you had I known you had epilepsy’ I also wasn’t allowed to do a Masters with my current employer and the reason they gave was my health. Cheers then ☹️

Lots of people are discriminated against, not just BAME people.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I think we need to look at something & I do find it incredible that people who take drugs complain about gang crime.

I grew up in a very diverse part of London & my parents are immigrants. I would never touch drugs.

Annnd... that would be why the OP says:

"Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now)."

@PerkingFaintly

Annnd... that would be why the OP says:

"Able-bodied privilege. An able bodied person is more privileged (at an advantage) than a person with a disability. It's an able bodied person's world (for now)."

And that is true, no?

Yes, absolutely.

I was responding to EmbarrassedUser saying "Lots of people are discriminated against, not just BAME people." And giving her example of her discriminatory employer.

I’m sick of hearing about this. I think that BAME people have more power than they realise. ‘Oh I didn’t get the job, it’s obviously because I’m BAME’ Could it possibly be because you just weren’t good enough? I’m white and been turned down for 90% of jobs I’ve applied for and some have had people of ethnic minorities on the interview panel

Yeah, that's a real mystery.

@LonginesPrime "They're not caused by white privilege - they result from a complex range of factors that can be traced back to structural racial oppression."

I disagree. It's actually a lot simpler. Many ethnicities have been affected by racial oppression but it's down to how each ethnic group responded that made the difference.

As @Hearhoovesthinkzebras pointed out, you don't see other ethnic communities that have been historically oppressed (Jewish, Asian etc.) resorting to selling drugs or gang violence on the scale seen with the Black community.

As someone of Indian descent, I can tell you the response I have heard over the years from the Indian community when topics like racism, colonialism etc. are brought up is quite simply: Get over it, and if you really have a problem with it, work hard and become more successful than the person treating you badly and we'll see who has the last laugh.

yes, the comparison in London between Indians./Chinese and black does show a lot of it is not really race discrimination but who worked hardest at school, who got the best exam results, who chose not to use drugs and not to drink. So not really a skin colour discrimination in some cases but more based on things like how hard you worked at school and yes lots of the Asian and Syrian etc children are in the same classes as white working class and black children who do not do as well albeit the home family life might be harder eg more single parents working class white mothers and more married couples amongst Indians and Chinese who do not divorce very often. Complex issues but basically there are all kind of disadvantages in life and if black people want their cause taken up they may find BLM or mention of white (and indeed brown) privilege too much might be counter productive as is removing statues , breaking the law and calling for no police force/no funding for the British police and withdrawal of cocopops and rice krispies characters on race grounds.

@EmbarrassedUser

I’m sick of hearing about this. I think that BAME people have more power than they realise. ‘Oh I didn’t get the job, it’s obviously because I’m BAME’ Could it possibly be because you just weren’t good enough? I’m white and been turned down for 90% of jobs I’ve applied for and some have had people of ethnic minorities on the interview panel. I just shrug and this oh well. I have a disability and was told by my line manager ‘I would never Have employed you had I known you had epilepsy’ I also wasn’t allowed to do a Masters with my current employer and the reason they gave was my health. Cheers then ☹️

Lots of people are discriminated against, not just BAME people.

There is loads of evidence that dispute your thoughts. Particularly black people are discriminated against. Sorry to hear you’ve been discriminated against, disability can work in your ‘favour’ I studied with someone who always told potential employers about his disability as it guaranteed an interview.

@Xenia

yes, the comparison in London between Indians./Chinese and black does show a lot of it is not really race discrimination but who worked hardest at school, who got the best exam results, who chose not to use drugs and not to drink. So not really a skin colour discrimination in some cases but more based on things like how hard you worked at school and yes lots of the Asian and Syrian etc children are in the same classes as white working class and black children who do not do as well albeit the home family life might be harder eg more single parents working class white mothers and more married couples amongst Indians and Chinese who do not divorce very often. Complex issues but basically there are all kind of disadvantages in life and if black people want their cause taken up they may find BLM or mention of white (and indeed brown) privilege too much might be counter productive as is removing statues , breaking the law and calling for no police force/no funding for the British police and withdrawal of cocopops and rice krispies characters on race grounds.

How can explain the research I posted which shows that black pupils are routinely marked down; proving that they have to work harder than their white, Indian and Chinese peers? There is so much more at play and it isn’t as simple as saying that they should work harder. That is victim blaming, we’d all be up in arms if someone said women should walk alone if they don’t want to be victimised. This is exactly the same.

How can explain the research I posted which shows that black pupils are routinely marked down; proving that they have to work harder than their white, Indian and Chinese peers?
There is so much more at play and it isn’t as simple as saying that they should work harder. That is victim blaming, we’d all be up in arms if someone said women should walk alone if they don’t want to be victimised. This is exactly the same

Then what accounts for white working class boys being the group who do least well at school, along with Roma and Traveller children?

@LonginesPrime

this sense that white people should feel guilty is just not sustainable for a cohesive society

I am white, I was born into a modicum of privilege (above average earning parents who were together, good education) but that doesn't mean I feel like I should give it all up and live in some enforced poverty

it insinuates BAME people have no chance, when I just don't think that is true here anymore

I understand the concept

No, I don't think you do, hanstersarse.

One of the consequences of white privilege is not seeing race an as issue because it isn't an issue to you. For example:

I do not think race is a helpful lens overall

it is entrenched in our laws - there can be no greater commitment to racial equality

I think anyone can have a chance in this country, and the things most likely to scupper chances for individuals are their family backgrounds and peer group cultures, not the system that we have

I do understand the concept. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand it! I think the concept has come from the predominantly white, middle class left, which in it's quest to be woke is only deepening social divisions and ensuring the future of a 'colour blind' society - where everyone is treated individually on their own merits - is just being pushed backwards.

I will be totally honest and say that the BLM movement makes me walk on egg shells now, for fear of being called a racist. An example would be, I meet a BAME person who has a non-British accent, I am curious and interested to know about their life (not because of anything other than interest in human stories), yet apparently I could be accused of being racist if I ask about their origins. These are very human conversations that create connection and understanding, and are now being made off limits.

The term racism has expanded dramatically in recent years, and I don't think that is good because it brings in a level of suspicion about the integrity of whole thing. I know I am not being racist when I enquire and show interest in someone's life, yet because the definition has expanded so much, I would be put in that box. What I am saying here, is that we have to be absolutely forensic of what we put in the box of 'racism' and never submit to the temptation to put a race lens on every misdemeanor and bad outcome - there are often many explanations and it not helpful to dilute the term and 'say it is resposnisble for everything'.

I totally accept there is racism that exists, but accusing every 'micro' exchange which had good intention does not do the overall cause any good.

Do BAME people really want white people to walk on eggshells the whole time or do they just want to be part of usual imperfect human relationships? I feel that is what this movement is doing. I just can't see how that is good - we need to be able to relate imperfectly with one another?

Just to clarify, I am not saying that discrimination does not exist

There are individual racists, of that I have no doubt, but our 'systems' do try to mitigate for them - what else would you like in our laws? Where do you draw the lines?

Also, the studies on the IAT have been shown recently to be totally flawed. And the whole basis of many of these arguments is that white people hold some 'unconscious bias' - and that whole concept is hugely controversial in psychology. The teacher study quoted here works on this basis....but it really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

" it came as a major blow when four separate (pdf) meta–analyses (pdf), undertaken between 2009 and 2015—each examining between 46 and 167 individual studies—all showed the IAT to be a weak predictor of behavior. Two of the meta-analyses focus on the race IAT while two examine the IAT’s links with behavior more broadly, but all four show weak predictive abilities."

I know I am not being racist when I enquire and show interest in someone's life, yet because the definition has expanded so much, I would be put in that box

Right, but that's where an awareness of white privilege is useful, non?

You don't mean anything offensive by asking someone where they're originally from, and you wouldn't mind if someone asked you where you were originally from.

But can you see how someone being on the receiving end of that question who's had to put up with being told to go back to their own country, being asked 'yes, Manchester, but where are you really from? Like where are your parents from?' and has been identified as 'other' in one way or another for the whole of their life, might have a different perspective? They might not see it as such an innocuous question.

Although you don't mean it in a nasty way and are actually trying to show an interest, can you see how it sounds very similar to what someone who wants to subtly remind someone that they don't belong might say?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

*How can explain the research I posted which shows that black pupils are routinely marked down; proving that they have to work harder than their white, Indian and Chinese peers? There is so much more at play and it isn’t as simple as saying that they should work harder. That is victim blaming, we’d all be up in arms if someone said women should walk alone if they don’t want to be victimised. This is exactly the same*

Then what accounts for white working class boys being the group who do least well at school, along with Roma and Traveller children?

You’re looking at outcomes. Outcomes only show part of the story. What do BAME children face when they are at school? There is a lot of evidence that black children (in particular) have an uphill struggle from the start. The fact white WC boys (in particular) don’t do well doesn’t mean the system isn’t in their favour, correlation doesn’t prove causation. To use yours and others views maybe they just need to work harder.

@hamstersarse I will be totally honest and say that the BLM movement makes me walk on egg shells now, for fear of being called a racist. An example would be, I meet a BAME person who has a non-British accent, I am curious and interested to know about their life (not because of anything other than interest in human stories), yet apparently I could be accused of being racist if I ask about their origins.
Then you aren’t listening. Everyone I know who complains about being asked where are they really from was born in the UK. Has an accent from a region of the UK yet is asked where are you from “x town in the UK” no where are you really from. There is a glaringly big difference between asking a person from the UK where they are really from and asking someone with an accent where their accent hails from.

You’re looking at outcomes. Outcomes only show part of the story. What do BAME children face when they are at school? There is a lot of evidence that black children (in particular) have an uphill struggle from the start. The fact white WC boys (in particular) don’t do well doesn’t mean the system isn’t in their favour, correlation doesn’t prove causation. To use yours and others views maybe they just need to work harder.

Ah, I see. So if white working class children don't do well it's their fault, not society's, but if black children don't do well it's society's fault?

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

You’re looking at outcomes. Outcomes only show part of the story. What do BAME children face when they are at school? There is a lot of evidence that black children (in particular) have an uphill struggle from the start. The fact white WC boys (in particular) don’t do well doesn’t mean the system isn’t in their favour, correlation doesn’t prove causation. To use yours and others views maybe they just need to work harder.

Ah, I see. So if white working class children don't do well it's their fault, not society's, but if black children don't do well it's society's fault?

That is literally what you and your other cronies are saying on this thread about black children. I don’t actually believe it, there are quite a few variables in play.

I think everyone judges people when they meet them- even a little bit. To try and find an advantage over them. They can't help it. It should be a life's work to try not to.

I'm white well educated woman with a PhD but from rural NI with an accent to match. You wouldn't believe the number of people who as soon as I open my mouth think this makes me inferior. The number of people who are openly shocked that I'm Dr Roundturnandtwohalfhitches. My colleague always says as a quite overweight woman she's not supposed to be clever either.
I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be wearing your difference, your 'minority', on your skin- be that being disabled or BAME.

That is literally what you and your other cronies are saying on this thread about black children. I don’t actually believe it, there are quite a few variables in play.

What I'm saying is that there are many variables at play, affecting children at school and their outcomes. I don't think you can boil it down to black v white. It's far more complicated than that.

What I don't understand is how people can claim that black children are being adversely affected at school due to race yet when you point out that a group of white boys are doing worse, which suggests that black children aren't being discriminated against, then that is meant to be overlooked.

Personally, I think it's due to parental involvement, parental attitude towards education, home situation, availability of resources to support education, ambition, other social issues - do you disagree?

Yes

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

That is literally what you and your other cronies are saying on this thread about black children. I don’t actually believe it, there are quite a few variables in play.

What I'm saying is that there are many variables at play, affecting children at school and their outcomes. I don't think you can boil it down to black v white. It's far more complicated than that.

What I don't understand is how people can claim that black children are being adversely affected at school due to race yet when you point out that a group of white boys are doing worse, which suggests that black children aren't being discriminated against, then that is meant to be overlooked.

Personally, I think it's due to parental involvement, parental attitude towards education, home situation, availability of resources to support education, ambition, other social issues - do you disagree?

I don’t disagree with your last statement. I disagree that race isn’t a factor as well. It is a factor, just because white WC boys have the worse outcomes does not disprove that race isn’t a factor

I don’t disagree with your last statement. I disagree that race isn’t a factor as well. It is a factor, just because white WC boys have the worse outcomes does not disprove that race isn’t a factor

How is it a factor though? If black children are achieving at or greater than expected outcomes in what way is race affecting them?