Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

It comes down to whether you believe that your brain and your body are separate.

Can your chromosomes, dna and sex organs have one sex, and your brain a different one (ie a gender)? Like a female soul in a male body? That’s the literal “born in wrong body” argument.

Or you can believe that your biological make up is all there is regarding whether you are a man or woman. In some people their brain can experience gender dysphoria and make them feel strongly that their body is wrong.

From there it follows that you either think that trans women are literally women due to their internal essence and therefore they should be accepted as female. And therefore it’s their choice what they do in terms of surgery and hormones.... or you think that no matter what they do the person remains the same biological sex.

Many people in the second camp recognise that gender dysphoria is highly distressing and that it can be alleviated by transitioning but that saying that you can literally change sex is not true.

A lot of people in the first camp do think that those who are not trans do conform to sex stereotypes which is why there is a conflict with certain feminist groups who have always fought against the idea that there is a female girly brain.

@Ninkanink I’m on your side here, no need for anger (well, not with me anyway). The problem is many people fight is by saying ‘well what about post menopausal women, are they not women anymore’ when the frustrating menstruation talk comes up. Not all women menstruate, it’s a limiting way to categorise us either way. Female is the only option for people who menstruate. I do not mean that transwoman are women who don’t menstruate - though some actually claim they do

@LochJessMonster

Well for one, not all woman menstruate.

But I imagine this is a goady post...

Same old same old. Shut down the conversation by name calling.

there is also a lot of pro-trans people on here as well. I was hoping that they are going to come and answer my questions in a reasoned manner or that someone will come and point me to reasoned articles.

We’re massively outnumbered. I tend not to argue about trans rights here because I know it won’t get me anywhere, and because there are so many anti-trans posters that it isn’t possible to keep up with all of the responses (and then you get accused of cherry picking and not responding to everyone by the people you don’t address).

If you’re genuine, here are some links I would read. These are all from a pro-trans perspective. You may want to read anti-trans sources if you’re looking for both sides, but I personally won’t share links which I think are harmful and / or dehumanising.

theconversation.com/half-of-transgender-and-non-binary-people-hide-their-identity-at-work-in-fear-of-discrimination-heres-how-you-can-help-115523

www.crosslandsolicitors.com/site/hr-hub/transgender-discrimination-in-UK-workplaces

www.stonewall.org.uk/lgbt-britain-trans-report

theconversation.com/a-trans-review-of-2017-the-year-of-transgender-moral-panic-89272

Those are some links to get started on, and many contain further links if you want to read in more deeply.

Nobody categorised women that way. HTH.

The problem is @OneNewName that no one has posted any opposing articles or reports from reputable sources! It would be great if they did, but they just haven't.

Well for one, not all woman menstruate.

Not all women will get ovarian or cervical cancer.

Not all women will die in childbirth.

Not all women will be denied the pill or an abortion.

Not all women will suffer FGM.

I could go on, but the facts will remain the same. Not all women will suffer the above, but all who will suffer them will be biological women.

you would be better off googling and looking for articles and reports from reputable sources

Are there any you'd recommend? Can you give us some links or even just some names of 'reputable sources' so I can go away and google them please?

It comes down to whether you believe that sex is a biological fact or not.

I don't care what a person wants to be labelled. I believe that some people feel they are born in the wrong body and wish to live as the opposite sex. I don't see this as harmful to women (or men) at all so supportive of that.

If there are men pretending to be trans to invade female spaces then they are the problem and should be stopped. I doubt there are than many though.

The "people who mensturate" issue is weird because I cant understand how "women who mensturate" would be insensitive to a trans woman. So that one does confuse me.

@Ninkanink sorry I think I might have taken something as directed at me that wasn’t

@TooTiredTodayOk see above

Thank you for the links @zscaler.

@onalongsabbatical

Everyone with common sense is distancing themselves from Rowling. And I'm an aardvark. Both of these statements are true. Because I said so.

@titchy no problem

But sally if self ID which is the goal of TRA is anyone who says they are a woman is a woman then how do we tell?

If morning us required to self ID as a woman than saying you are, how do women distinguish between a TW & a man pretending to be a woman to get access to womens spaces bearing in mind you do not even have to present as a woman to identify as one?

I think are more acceptable term rather than “cis”women is natal women.

Morning = nothing

The "people who mensturate" issue is weird because I cant understand how "women who mensturate" would be insensitive to a trans woman.

It's trans men who may find it offensive, as they identify as men but may still have periods. People like Daniel Radcliffe confuse this issue by making it about trans women instead, who may identify as a woman but will certainly not have the biological capacity to have periods.

Of course, it completely sidesteps the idea that trans men are men, and therefore he as a male could identify as menstruating (which 'real men' would never actually associate themselves with).

@OneNewName - excellent, it's nice to have someone from an opposing view point. Could you please answer my original questions or point me to some reputable (non-threatening) links?

There is no need to qualify the term woman. Woman has one meaning, one definition.

Not all women menstruate, but only women menstruate. Saying biological sex exists, it's real and it matters is not anti trans. It's pro women.

OP, if you're genuinely trying to understand more, you need to take soundings not just from here but elsewhere. This place is noted for being very much on one side of the argument. I am gender critical myself but responses on a MN thread certainly won't reflect the breadth of opinion on the subject, and some people find the place very intolerant of dissenting views.

OK - ignore my last post, it's moved on massively! Will check out @zscaler's links!

@DumbledoreAskedCalmly that was a fantastic post.