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Please help me understand the transgender issue

452 replies

Flippetydip · 11/06/2020 10:16

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

OP posts:
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SeasonallySnowyPeasant · 11/06/2020 10:31

OP, these links lay it out pretty well:

fairplayforwomen.com/legal-basics/

fairplayforwomen.com/want-know-women-livid-mumsnet/

Adirondack · 11/06/2020 10:32

Op I too am confused. If I said (I am white) that I now identify as a black / Pakistani / Cherokee / Mongolian, the whole world would tell me (rightly) that a) I’m not and b) me saying that is offensive. So WHY WHY WHY is it ok for a MAN to say he’s a woman? He can be a trans woman, sure. He can live his life as a woman, but a magic spell does not take place. Biologically, that person remains male.

Pertella · 11/06/2020 10:33

Where did JK say all women menstruate?

BuffaloCauliflower · 11/06/2020 10:33

Not all women menstruate, but all those who do menstruate are woman (or female, as an 11 year girl is not yet a woman but may menstruate)
Sex and gender are not the same thing. If people want to present themselves using the socially created and imposed sex-based stereotypes of gender that’s their call, it doesn’t however negate biological sex

letmethinkaboutitfornow · 11/06/2020 10:34

I am with you OP.
People are either man or woman. If you are in doubt, check your genital and / or run a DNA test.
Most women menstruate.
Most men pee while standing up.
...and other generalisation.

However there are people who feel they are in the wrong body, either for a day or for longer. They can identify whichever way they feel but it will not change their DNA.
I respect their identity for as long it’s not impacting my life. (I.e I don’t wish to get into the changing room with a trans woman), which I don’t think makes me trans phobic or disrespectful towards the trans community.
Live and let live.

(Sometimes I wish I could be a man as they seem to have it so easy, but it doesn’t mean I will start taking testosterone...)

sleepyhead · 11/06/2020 10:34

It would be much easier if we could separate gender and sex for good and say that woman/women refers to gender, man/men refers to gender, female refers to sex, male refers to sex.

Then transwomen could be women, but male. Transmen could be men, but female.

We could recognise that some spaces are segregated by sex not gender, so toilets as sex segregated spaces are divided into males and females, and we need a third space for those who are not comfortable using the facilities designated for their sex.

But that doesn't cut it. I can remember when the TRAs were saying of course TW aren't female, now that's verboten. They conciously and deliberately mix the language and then deny it.

You can't change sex, everyone knows it - it is the Emperor's new clothes.

MrsPeacockInTheLibrary · 11/06/2020 10:34

Being a woman is my biological reality: my lung capacity, life expectancy, medical treatments or diseases I am likely to get, periods every month. Yes, not all women have them - but most have had them, or have the biology in place for reproductive processes.

It has also shaped how I am socialised, what I am paid, how people perceive me.

I do not 'perform' woman. I once had very short hair, don't wear make up particularly, have a masculine nickname and wear trousers. Did I suddenly become a man?

It is also why I am a victim of sexual and physical abuse. My body. My sex. My lived experience. No one gets to erase that or tell me that the sex I was born with hasn't shaped my life.

Historically, women have been silenced politically, socially, sexually, emotionally - and physically. Factors involving that include race, class, period of history and I'm sure other factors.

Look at the vitriol women MPS, women on social media, black women get. Never mind everyday sexism in the workplace.

I recognise gender is complex and everyone works on their own identity. For me its because I fundamentally don't believe in gender binaries - for god's sake, just 'let' men wear skirts and make up and heels. All men, any men. Let women not have children (me) without judgement, wear make up or not, be a boss, girl not a derogatory word. Let men cry and women shout.

I recognise the rights of anyone who has experienced oppression at the hands of privilege and misogyny. But they don't get to erase the importance of sex in determining that for others. Woman's rights AND trans rights.

Flippetydip · 11/06/2020 10:35

TRA?

OP posts:
BuffaloCauliflower · 11/06/2020 10:35

And there is no material difference between transgenderism and transracialism, except what some have decided is unacceptable. In fact there is more biological certainty around sex than race, race is more socially constructed, yet claiming to be a different sex is more acceptable

BuffaloCauliflower · 11/06/2020 10:35

@Flippetydip trans rights activists

Ninkanink · 11/06/2020 10:36

Cis is a deeply offensive term and should not be used.

Sex is a biological fact.

Sex and gender are not interchangeable and should not be used interchangeably.

Flippetydip · 11/06/2020 10:37

@BuffaloCauliflower - thank you!

@Ninkanink - what does it mean though and where does it come from?

OP posts:
sleepyhead · 11/06/2020 10:38

It's telling that they never have the slightest problem identifying the sex of the people to pile on if they make a slip.

The difference in the treatment of male and female prominent people in this debate is shameful.

Enderthedragon · 11/06/2020 10:38

Well for one, not all woman menstruate.

Who said that they did?

Changename5000 · 11/06/2020 10:38

Women don't have penises

Transmen dont go around saying "We are men, accept our lady vagina"

Ninkanink · 11/06/2020 10:39

You can read many intelligent and in-depth analyses of this subject and all its facets on the feminist topic.

OneNewName · 11/06/2020 10:39

Mumsnet is a bad place to find genuine responses to these queries OP - it has a very strong anti-trans rights slant. If you’re just being goady you won’t care about that, but if you’re being genuine and want to read a range of sources from both sides of the debate (which means hearing from trans people as well as from people like JKR) then you would be better off googling and looking for articles and reports from reputable sources.

This.

Ninkanink · 11/06/2020 10:41

Oh my word STOP IT with the ‘not all women menstruate’. You have NOT read what JK actually said. You have no understanding. Educate yourself.

Not all women menstruate. Not all women have a womb. Not all women have large breasts and shapely hips. And so on, and so forth.

But all women are of the sex that is female.

BuffaloCauliflower · 11/06/2020 10:41

Cis technically means ‘on the side of’. Rather than trans which is ‘the other side of’.

It’s offensive because I am a woman, not a category of woman. Just woman is fine, I do not require a prefix.

Enderthedragon · 11/06/2020 10:42

Mumsnet is a bad place to find genuine responses to these queries OP - it has a very strong anti-trans rights slant.

What rights do we not want trans people to have?

MashedPotatoBrainz · 11/06/2020 10:42

For me it's a simple matter of belief. Do you believe that transwomen are women or do you believe that they are men? Everything else is just noise to drown out the answer to that.

sleepyhead · 11/06/2020 10:42

Transmen dont go around saying "We are men, accept our lady vagina"

Actually, more and more gay men are talking about exactly that - it's the boxer ceiling aparently. Transmen on Grindr and similar getting very upset about gay men talking about how they like penises.

PinkyU · 11/06/2020 10:42

Some people view “woman” as an identity, not attached to sex, but rather a sense of self and how others in society view and treat you. AKA gender.

Some people view “woman” as being intrinsically attached to sex, they often believe that as gender is a social construct it therefore doesn’t truly exist.

There are extremists on both sides which makes respectful and reasoned debates difficult, resulting in arguments getting ground down and lost in inconsequential minutia such as the arguments around the use of “they” as a pronoun. Meaning real concerns, worries and fears (from both sides) are not appropriately addressed.

And so it drags on, and on, and on.......

Ive boiled it down a lot there and made it quite basic seeing as you’re so new Hmm to the discussion.

sleepyhead · 11/06/2020 10:43

Obviously the difference is the transmen generally aren't then threatening to rape or kill the gay men using a baseball bat.

Ninkanink · 11/06/2020 10:43

No. Mumsnet has a strong stance against the erosion of women’s and girls’ rights and protections and against the erosion of biological fact and material reality. This is an agenda that we are absolutely right to push back against.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with trans rights, which is a separate issue altogether.