Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

If I were to swap bodies with a man, I would have to make the best of it. As in the polyjuice example given in another thread, this is of course Not Possible, it's fantasy - our bodies are our body, even if we don't like them and even if we completely deny their existence (c.f en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotard_delusion)

Of course it's a good thing to be kind, not to mock someone for their appearance and not to discriminate based on appearance or presentation. Trans people should not be discriminated against based on their gender presentation in work, employment, healthcare or admission to any service that would normally admit people of their sex.

However, their sexed body is their sexed body - it's the only one they have or will ever have and women should not be expected to give up their safe spaces because of hurt feelings.

Men attacking transwomen in toilets should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Gay bashing is abhorent but gay men don't go into women's toilets. Violence in men's prisons is abhorent but we don't put all vulnerable men into women's prisons.

The problem of male violence against women is enough of a problem for us to deal with - we're not the world's mother to take on everyone else's problems as well.

@abstractprojection

If you were to swap bodies with a man you would still be you, and part of being you is being a woman (gender) and even though you would have a penis (sex). That is how trans people feel.

Having a sex different to your gender makes some people self-harm, suffer MH, even kill themselves. Whereas receiving medical treatment, kindness and respect, enables many to live good happy productive lives instead of traumatic lives.

I’m not trans so I will never fully understand it, but I’ve seen first hand how difficult it can be for trans people to navigate even the simplest parts of life ie. which toilet am I least likely to be beaten up for using. I’ve also seen people flourish once they have what they need to be themselves.

I don't know about this one. I think if I had a man's body, I would definitely have been socialised to have a completely different point of view, and having a more powerful body. But, I have empathy that people feel disphoric about their own body.

Also, I also come from the perspective that mental health issues should concern us all. And that reverting to discussing self-harm and suicide is a way to shut down discussion. It kind of misses the point that if women are also suffering with mental health issues, are they not equally as important. Particularly if it comes down to the need to be validated has triggered an abused woman's PTSD or feeling of security.

When you do start to unpick the suicide stats, and you should do your own research on finding unbiased ones that don't rely on self-reporting surveys or some dodgy methodology, they tend to unravel. An expert psychiatrist who was dealing with gender cases in the NHS said the reality did not seem to reflect these assertions. And that it was just as prevalent before transition as after with some major issues being that there were co-morbidities that might not have been addressed plus the realisation that it did not fix anything at all and was truly irreversible. Please be very careful with these stats. I have also seen reports that have compared them to other health issues and they were not too dissimilar to illnesses like anorexia (and sometimes anorexia is a co-morbidity for gender dysphoria which also makes sense).

I don't often see & hear the other side of the debate eg transmen & self id'ing as a man.

If I self id tmw as a man but still present as a women will I get paid more than yesterday? Can I access gentlemen's clubs or religious male only spaces?

Surely the solution is to campaign for a third “gender neutral” space rather than force women to move over and make way?

I've been saying this a long time. It would take time to implement, but surely that would be a solution for everyone?

As for those saying 'trans women aren't all sexual/violent predators', well, neither are men, are they? Yet broadly speaking women agree we need to segregate certain facilities for the comfort and safety of all involved.

No fridpst of course you can't.

Even the bloody GRA wrote into the legislation that transmen couldn't inherit on the basis of now being an eldest son,

The men-only clubs don't admit transmen (but do often continue to admit members who have transitioned to female).

And noone has a problem working out who the women are when it comes to the "gender" pay gap.

Surely the solution is to campaign for a third “gender neutral” space

TRAs don't want that. It's not about their safety, it's making sure they 'win' over women.

@sleepyhead unbelievable & I assume those organisations don't get lambasted in the media, lose their jobs & get death threats?

No, apparently some transmen complain vociferously on Grindr about gay men discriminating against them by talking about their penises, but I think it's more "not fair" and less "I'm going to doxx you and this baseball bat's got your name on it".

Who'd a thunk it.

who indeed

She's wrong to say 'women' menstruate because trans woman don't and trans men do...it's pretty clear why not only women menstruate. Also, not all cis women menstruate...does that mean they're not cis women? Are they now men...or some alien species?

That is quite simply cockcustard! And ... less of the 'cis women' if you please. I'm a woman: simple as. While you're pouring all your energies into respecting every fucker's pronouns, perhaps you could do me the courtesy of getting my preferred descriptor right. Ta

He can be a trans woman, sure. He can live his life as a woman

Well, no; he can't: live life as a woman, that is. How would he do that? The only way to live life as a woman is ..... to be a woman.

Interestingly, I'm starting to consider if I have ever 'lived my life as a woman'. The majority of cases where me being a woman has been relevant has been in cases of physical or sexual abuse, so I don't consider that to be living a life. I'm not sporty, so I never needed to look for a women's sports team to join. I did go to a girls' school but that wasn't because I wanted to - and I imagine at the moment trans girls/women are gaining entry into girls' schools anyway, which wasn't a prominent issue when I was of secondary school age.

I've been pregnant and given birth. But according to the guidelines that I have seen suggested, that's not because I'm a woman. That's because my sex is female.

I enjoy wearing dresses and doing my hair and make up but again that's not exclusive to living life as a woman.

If I am a woman, as I thought I was for the majority of my life, how have I lived my life as a woman? Have I?

cockcustard

So then is it appropriate to say I've lived my life as a PoC? With my Caribbean heritage came my Caribbean culture from my mother's side and I've enjoyed living within that culture. Meaning food, music, sometimes clothes, language. I used to feel I enjoyed living within 'women's culture'. But what is women's culture?

I don't recall a single post-menopausal woman complaining about comments saying "women menstruate".

*If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?"

Perfectly put. Thank you.

Has anybody else written to their MP?

I've started a letter but if anyone has advice on structure and content I would be really grateful. Have terrible baby brain and cant get my thoughts in order!

Take a look on womensplaceuk.org and womensgrid.org.uk and lgballiance - they have template letters and well constructed points to make.

I don't recall a single post-menopausal woman complaining about comments saying "women menstruate".

Post-menopausal women are probably mostly thinking thank fuck that's over and done with!

The second worst crime in human history was the Holocaust. A small minority of the victims’ descendants have since gone on to mildly victimise the next oppress-able group in line. It’s a bit ugly. It’s also very bad marketing.

The worst crime in history has been the oppression of most women by most men. A small minority of the victims’ descendants...

Nothing will ever excuse the way men have treated women. But anti-trans activists are on the wrong side of history. And yes, I know, you’re not anti-trans, nothing against them so long as they know their place, some of your best friends are trans etc etc.

At some point we’ll work out how to give men who want them wombs and ovaries. Will they still not be real women? What about if they get gene therapy? What does it take to safeguard the purity of the race...sorry, I meant sex...?

There are millions of real injustices being perpetrated against your sex, gender or whatever you currently like to call it all over the world, every single day. Is the segregated toilets fight morally sensible under the circs? Is it strategically sensible? Dunno, it’s your call to make. But from the outside it sure doesn’t look that way...

The worst crime in history has been the oppression of most women by most men

I did not get the memo this was "history", I was under the illusion I'm still very much living it....

Apologies if this has been mentioned - I've not read all 450 odd posts. My sort-of-related point on the comparisons between the ability or otherwise of a person to change gender or race regards the recent taking down of Little Britain, The Mighty Boosh and The League of Gentlemen from various streaming services. They were removed because of over-the-top, ridiculous characters played by white actors made up to appear BAME. Regardless of your view on the merit of those programmes, if a white actor cannot play a black character, why is it acceptable for a male actor to portray an over-the-top, ridiculous female character? (Effing Mrs Brown's Boys and every pantomime ever, for example.)

At some point we’ll work out how to give men who want them wombs and ovaries. Will they still not be real women?

The men who 'want them'? Where are those wombs and ovaries going to come from?

There are millions of real injustices being perpetrated against your sex, gender or whatever you currently like to call it all over the world, every single day. Is the segregated toilets fight morally sensible under the circs? Is it strategically sensible? Dunno, it’s your call to make. But from the outside it sure doesn’t look that way...

Well, which is it? Sex? Gender? Whatever? If you can't even name it then you have no right talking about it, and you sure as fuck have no right to question us about what is 'strategically sensible'.

There are millions of real injustices being perpetrated against your sex

Yes. We are currently being told that using the noun for our sex is exclusionary, and that we should't be able to use it. How, then, are we do accurately describe these injustices?

'real injustices'

As opposed to what? You appear to be suggesting that removing our right to single-sex spaces without consent would be a fake injustice, or rather, perfectly just. That's patently untrue.

Your assertion that we will be on the wrong side of history is not something you can prove. I refute it. I think you will be found to have been on the wrong side of history.

Etc, etc.

I’m sure this issue isn’t the majority of trans people, but then they also need to stand up to the transwomen aggressively attacking women’s spaces.
I’m sure there are people who feel they are in the wrong body and surgery helps. There are many for them it is a perversion. Pretending to have period is a perversion. Women who don’t have periods don’t pretend to have them do they? That’s not what makes you a woman.