Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

@zscaler - thanks for those other links. They were interesting.

@zscaler wow your side has all the worst arguments

"In addition to the suspicion that people are born, rather than made, transgender, there’s also the very real fact that being openly, visibly trans is a far riskier proposition than openly appropriating aspects of black culture is for a white person. White Americans are more or less free to dress in black styles and use black slang unquestioned and unmolested—some white Americans in the music and entertainment fields have even gotten rich doing so. Being identifiably trans, however, brings with it some of the most intense and unrelenting stigma, prejudice, and vulnerability to violence in our culture, particularly for people perceived to be dressing as women. Trans women seeking to pass as cis should therefore be understood as marginalized people (due to their trans status) trying to escape oppression by passing as members of a less marginalized group (cis people of either gender) than as privileged ones appropriating a marginalized group’s identity."

Black men experience murder rates ten times higher than white men. There is no evidence that black transwomen experience higher or lower murder rates than black men, however they are likely to be the same.

Moreover the idea that Caitlyn Jenner a hugely wealthy white Republican is somehow identifying into oppression is the work of someone with the IQ of a boiled cabbage. Seriously. Do people actually believe this shit?

Jane Fae, rich white extreme porn advocate, Caitlyn Jenner, rich white athlete, have absolutely fuck all in common with black biological males who identify as female at higher rates than among white biological males, not because the black community is somehow more trans-friendly, but rather because transgenderism is often inherently homophobic, and gay males are forced into a female gender role in homophobic societies. Ever wonder why Iran won't throw you off the top of a fucking building for violating Sharia law if you submit to transgender surgery as a gay man?

Your ideas don't stand up to even basic scrutiny.

If you want to say that white men can identify as white women then white men should be able to identify as black men or black women. Anything else is totally logically indefensible.

Come up with some arguments that have internal consistency instead of literal bollocks.

We’re massively outnumbered. I tend not to argue about trans rights here because I know it won’t get me anywhere, and because there are so many anti-trans posters that it isn’t possible to keep up with all of the response

See I don't think that's true either. Any decent person would agree that every single person in the UK should have the freedom and legal protection to dress how they like, fall in love with who they like, call themselves by which ever name they choose, have freedom of religion or whatever. Transwomen and transmen should absolutely not be living in fear and should absolutely not be persecuted or discriminated against for the way they choose to live their lives. They have the same rights as everyone does and that's quite correct and fair.

But you can still believe all that and be against persecution, and not believe that you can change sex. Because you can't. A transwoman is biologically male, a transman is biologically female. Whatever changes they have made to their body, they can't change that basic fact.

And I find the term "cis woman" incredibly offensive.

@CatandtheFiddle

it has a very strong anti-trans rights slant

No, MN has a very strong pro-women slant. One of e most feminist places on the internet.

If supporting and centring women and girls' legal rights in the UK is "anti-trans" then there is an issue with the understanding of trans rights.

Supporting and centring women & girls is not transphobic.

Agree with you

I don't understand why so many non females WANT to be female.

Some anime lesbian furry porn, some toxic masculinity in their lives, some genuine.

Sounds to me like you understand the issue pretty well actually! FWR contains a wealth of linked resources too, though the "Break it down for me" thread appears to have gone AWOL (if anyone can locate it please do post a link).

@Bigearringsbigsmile

I don't understand why so many non females WANT to be female. I'm coming back as a man in my next life! Imagine how nice it would be not to be subject to all the patriarchal bull shit. No periods! Christ- I have bleeding and cramping once a month for 36 years! 36 fucking years! Apart from the break I had when I was gestating other people in my womb and then feeding them from my breasts.

But they don’t really want to be women. What they want is to cherry pick the aspects of womanhood that are appealing.

@Aridane - not meaning to be obtuse, can you point me in the right direction to look at this please? I seem to get lost with googling

@Flippetydip - assuming you are posting in good faith And want to understand the legal position , you may want to try this 2 pager from our government

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/721642/GEO-LGBT-factsheet.pdf

Albeit from 2018

If it has not already been said on this thread - the Fair Play for Women website is really great at laying out the impact self-id will have on women's sport and the impact of the proposed reforms to the Gender Recognition Act and many other really important impacts.

It is legally possible to change sex

But it shouldn't be. This is just MPs worried about losing the vote of transgender people.

And it may be legally possible, but it's not biologically possible.

But they don’t really want to be women. What they want is to cherry pick the aspects of womanhood that are appealing.

Yep

Trans people aren't the issue.

Trans rights activists are a misogynistic cult and they are the problem.

I know two trans people - one admittedly much older MTF who refers to himself as he and calls himself a cross-dresser but who has lived as a woman for decades - and neither of them are so absolutely deluded and odd as to scream at you that they are LITERALLY FEMALE.

They refer to themselves as transgender.

They know that they are biologically male, because they are. Their sex is male.

Their gender is MTF transgender. Which is also fine. I refer to one as she, because she is. I am referring to her gender. Her sex is male, but that is fine because the sex of MTF transgender women is male. Not a problem.

So in the world of the real people, the logical, biologically and scientifically correct, and also at the same time morally right and inclusive and sensitive position works just fine and everybody is happy. Both would like to see gender-neutral facilities which would allow them access to safe spaces which don't take away from the safe spaces that they are MORE than aware (as both have been victims of harrassment) that biological women desperately need to retain, too.

That's the real world, meanwhile, in Twitterland, the misogynists are loving their brand new Trojan Horse and riding it right over women's rights, day in day out.

Nobody has a valid answer for the question WHY some men should now be considered / treated /legally defined as women which doesn't lead to "woman" becoming a meaningless term.

The problem is @OneNewName that no one has posted any opposing articles or reports from reputable sources! It would be great if they did, but they just haven't.

@zscaler - clearly posting links to websites of LGBT charities and organisations, law firms and the UK government itself does not account.

I’m out - the echoes are hurting my ears

@ShootsFruitAndLeaves I think you have misunderstood.

The point being made is that white people who claim to be black, or any other race, are less likely to experience discrimination as a result of those claims than transgender people do. Caitlin Jenner is a poor example because she is obviously immensely privileged - far more so than the average trans woman or man. But, in general, white people who identify into or appropriate black culture benefit from it; very few transgender people benefit in terms or money or statue from transitioning. The only benefit to them is the ability to live authentically.

Look at Rachel Dolezal - she benefitted enormously from pretending to be black. It got her a job, it gave her income and community and speaking engagements and awards and recognition. Had she experienced the actual oppression and discrimination faced by most POC, however, she could simply have taken off her costume and regained the privilege of being white.

Similarly, we see people rewarded all the time for appropriating black and latinx culture. Look the riches and adulation gained by the Kardashians for their deep tans and their box braids. Look at Iggy Azalea and Miley Cyrus, who use aspects of black culture as a tool to enhance and promote their own appearances and artistic output when it suits them. They don’t experience discrimination like a black person does when they use aspects of black culture for their own benefit. The simply gain the benefits, while retaining their white privilege.

(Bold fail iro quote)

Please take your questions elsehwere OP. Read non-bias sources from both sides of the argument. Mumsnet is the dictionary definition of transphobic.

A person can get a gender recognition certificate, if they believe they are more comfortable living according to that gender stereotypes. This should not change what single sex facilities they use.

@Aridane indeed. It’s one of the reasons I rarely engage - you can post as many links as you like, but if your sources make an argument that anti-trans advocates have pre-judged and rejected, they will deem your source unsuitable simply because it doesn’t agree with them.

At least OP appears not to be rejecting them out of hand - that’s something.

I stand with JK. OP you have it spot on.

@Littlemeadow123 Please stop policing the thread. You have no right to tell people what they should and should not read - but you have certainly shown the OP how one side is trying to aggressively censor what people can see. Thanks for the lesson.

@Littlemeadow123

Please take your questions elsehwere OP. Read non-bias sources from both sides of the argument. Mumsnet is the dictionary definition of transphobic.

Disagree

Hello,

We've had a few reports about posts on this thread (in particular those which contain the term 'cis') and thought now might be a good time to drop in a link to our Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex for anyone who's new to this issue.

Here's what our guidelines say:

'It’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.'

We can see that a post which uses this term has been challenged on the thread so we'll leave it for now so the discussion of it makes sense, but please be aware of our Talk Guidelines from hereon in.

Many thanks.

Please take your questions elsehwere OP

The op has every right to ask questions here. This forum is full of educated and thoughtful women who have considered this issue in depth. This is a very good place to ask questions. And you are very misguided if you think that women concerned about the rights and safety of women and children is transphobia.