Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

Let’s also address the elephant in the room...

‘Your average transgender individual’ is no longer your average transgender individual. Do not make the mistake of thinking that the vast majority are necessarily of the type that just wants to exist peacefully and go about their own business.

If any of you who are new to this discussion want to know what current trans ideology looks like, perhaps read up on what behaviours apparently fall under this umbrella.

There is a reason why women are having to push back so forcefully on this.

Women did not cause this. Women are not to blame for this.

I would consider that to be a wholly inaccurate characterisation of the issue. I have seen myself the hideous rape threats, death threats, threats of violence, threats of doxxing, racist and sexist language used towards activists like Munroe Bergdorf, Rain Dove, Laverne Cox, Kenny Ethan Jones and others.

You have seen GC women threatening to rape Munroe?

I have seen horrific transphobic abuse aimed at transpeople. But its generally from men. Same as the actual violence, almost always men, but women are blamed for it. Apparently because feminists want to talk about womens rights, that winds the men up and the men attack transpeople because the women made them do it

Abuse is bad regardless of victim. But its simply not true, at all that transactivists recieve even a vagueley similar level of hate from women, as what they dish out. The abuse towasrds JK Rowling has been absolutely insane. And if you read what she actually said, it was supportive towards trans people. But got a whole load of misogynistic bile thrown at her, death and rape threats, people showing how much of a woman they are by telling Jo to choke on their big fat cock, saying shes got a 'smelly pussy', dried up oldhag, etc. Exact same abuse that comes from MRAs when women stand up for themselves. Odd that.

medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d?fbclid=IwAR2JBE2h544wCBHGubHIfEDX0tz8hK-AjoeAvI4v3gOQwHHLiVmu3c5TUls

^

For anyone wondering what I am meaning by the abuse JK Rowling is getting.

This reaction is entirely usual for women who speak about womens rights, or about women in general. Always always sexist insults. And exact same behaviour/language as whats been used towards women for milennia.

I would be interested to see if there is anything even slightly comparable from GC women to TRAs? I highly doubt it. But if there is, thats equally disgusting.

Also seriously it's the effect to sports that upsets me the most.
Women and girls simply won't be able to compete if this continues. A fast teenager boy is faster than the female world record holder. But it's transphobic to not allow girls and women who were born male, and have vastly increased strength etc, to compete in the female categories. Often they were mediocre in the male category before transistion.

And the transwomen transferring to female prisons in great numbers and gloating about it.

And the heartbreaking teenage girls who, like me when younger and now, don't identify with keeping up with the kardashians and/or are into male pursuits ( maths science engineering etc) and/or are gay, and/or want to escape from the relentless male gaze and beauty industry that is worse to teenagers, who conclude they would prefer to be men.

@batshite - was just about to say that. It is awful that trans women in the public eye (bergdorf etc) get rape and violence threats. Just like many other public women do. However from what I've seen it's men doing this. Not women. Women have in the main adopted a very supportive and live and let live approach. It's only when they see the hate and vitriol that has been spewed at anyone questioning the mantra, read about invasion of female only spaces and erasure and silencing of women that they try to object. And get stomped on for daring to say anything. It's truly horrifying and I think has made many women question this ideology.

Remember in 1984 there was a term called double speak - basically two opposing things can both be true at the same time if the political party say it is so. It’s deliberately confusion to stop people questioning it.

But it’s so very simple. Humans have two sexes XY male and XX female. A small percentage of people have sexual characteristics of both.

XX females can menstruate unless some medical reason prevents this, and are no longer able to after they have reached menopause.

XY males are incapable of menstruating.

No amount of word play, political correctness or demands to be acknowledged can ever change this.

A good source for transsexual information is Blair white on youtube, she is a trans male To female Who has an abundance of common sense.

I would consider that to be a wholly inaccurate characterisation of the issue. I have seen myself the hideous rape threats, death threats, threats of violence, threats of doxxing, racist and sexist language used towards activists like Munroe Bergdorf, Rain Dove, Laverne Cox, Kenny Ethan Jones and others.

Yes, so have I. Munroe posted some on their Instagram yesterday in fact and it was disgusting. But where was it coming from? Was it coming from women who are trying to protect their sex based rights? No, no it wasn't. It was coming from men. From 'Rick' and 'Jake' and 'Mad Max'.

It's got nothing to do with women in fact, so just leave us the fuck alone and allow us to continue with our single sex spaces and rights in peace.

If you have a look at Rain Dove’s Instagram as an example you will see some pretty awful abuse, some of it by women. Further up this thread I posted about a woman who ended up in a court for her hate speech towards a trans woman.

Most women would never behave that way and don’t ally themselves with those who do. Equally, most trans activists and trans people would never be abusive and don’t ally themselves with those who are. But we have to face up to the members of our communities who behave in unacceptable ways so that we can challenge them.

The abuse that comes from men seems largely ignored tbh, weirdly. And instead, women asserting their rights is whats classed as 'literal violence'.

There was a thread a while back where men voted on if they would sleep with a transwoman. A LOT of transphobic bile was on that thread but transactivists did not mention it once. Instead they spent their time hunting down women who were saying they support womens rights, and threatening to kill/rape/dox them.

Not all transactivists obviously.

Same as not all men.

All abuse is wrong. But this is not a 2 way street. I would be willing to change my opinion if I did see some proof obviously. However I have been involved in this for 3 years now, and never have I seen GC women threatening TRAs, and I have seen literally thousands of threats directed at women by men. Same as I have seen hundreds of horrible comments from men to transpeople.

Wow that Twitter link is truly dreadful. Why do people even go on there where all they want to do is abuse instead of rationally argue their point.

Who is this underclass of humanity? People with too much time on their hands clearly! Live and let live, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Agree totally with OP, she's pretty well got it. Up JK Rowling, we should be able to voice our concerns without abuse.

If you have a look at Rain Dove’s Instagram as an example you will see some pretty awful abuse, some of it by women. Further up this thread I posted about a woman who ended up in a court for her hate speech towards a trans woman.

Most women would never behave that way and don’t ally themselves with those who do. Equally, most trans activists and trans people would never be abusive and don’t ally themselves with those who are. But we have to face up to the members of our communities who behave in unacceptable ways so that we can challenge them.

Ah right. Yeah, its very possible that the odd woman might have threatened a TRA. I get where you are coming from now. However, the sheer numbers involved make this..simply not a 2 way thing. One or two women, vs hundred/thousands of TRAs piling on women. I guess its kind of like when discussing sexual violence, someone saying that its not a sexed crime, that because 120 women in the country are locked up for it, clearly women are just as bad as men. That because female offenders exist, its not primarily a male problem.

The women being abusive are wrong. The TRAs being abusive are wrong. But the TRAs vastly outnumber the women, even though women in general vastly outnumber TRAs. And still the huge majority of abuse towards transpeople is by men, though women are blamed for it.

@BatShite

I’m not sure why you’re suggesting that GC men are somehow not part of the issue here? You may well argue that you don’t consider yourself on the same side of the issue as them, but many TRAs would say the same about the TRAs who are abusive. It might male us feel more comfortable to use the ‘no true Scotsman’ defence, but it doesn’t really solve the problem.

I’m not tying to hold women uniquely responsible for the abuse levelled at trans people and TRAs - far from it. I apologise for giving that impression. I think that whether the abuse comes from men or women is pretty irrelevant to my original point, which is that the intense vitriol on both sides of this issue should be condemned.

I have to leave now because I’m going to Tesco, so I won’t be responding for a while (didn’t want anyone to think I was just disappearing).

The abuse that comes from men seems largely ignored tbh, weirdly. And instead, women asserting their rights is whats classed as 'literal violence'.

1. Men claim they are women because of a feeling.
2. Women firmly demur and ask for their own category to be protected; and to be included in the discussion about what makes a woman.
3. Those men issue rape threats, death threats, enact actual assault, dox and threaten women's livelihoods on an ongoing, co-ordinated and relentless manner.
4. [Other] Men issue violent threats similar to those issued by the men in (3).
5. Women are blamed for (4) and the issues in (3) are accelerated against them.

Riiiiiight.

@zscaler not sure if you are trolling us here, but the link you provide about Kate Scottow is not very balanced.

Perhaps some background would help

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/exclusive-transgender-lawyer-suing-graham-linehan-was-convicted-threatening-man-golf

Also if you go on Twitter and search cassiemouth you will find vile misogynistic abuse of a woman from Hayden's publicly confirmed aliases judicialcat and flyinglawyer73 as well as even more vile abuse under an anonymous stalking account. Hayden was in a tenancy dispute with this woman and her male partner however focused his (as then was) abuse on her.

I have no doubt that Hayden has been 'trolled' on Twitter by women, but this was definitely something that Hayden started.

Let's face it if women were making the kind of violent threats that they are on the receiving end from transactivists and other male allies then it would be screenshot and posted all over Twitter 24/7.

Buzzfeed and Huff Po would be writing lengthy opinion pieces about it complete with evidence rather than having to scrape the barrel painting JKR as the devil incarnate for tweeting about periods.

I don't condone abuse towards anyone but I am not buying this two sides bullshit and false equivalence.

I see others have tackled the Scottow and vexatious lawyer situation. It's really not the great comparison you think it is.

I’m not sure why you’re suggesting that GC men are somehow not part of the issue here?

I didn't realise I was doing that..sorry.

I just grow tired of seeing the 'as bad as each other' arguments, when from everything I have seen, and conitnue to see..the abuse is very much one way. And whilst trans people do get abuse (some vile..) it tends to be from men. Not 'GC men'..just men in general. So them recieving abuse from people who are not GC women, cannot really be blamed on GC women. hence not 'as bad as each other' though abuse is recieved by both.

There's a lot of language in this thread about choice "if a man CHOOSES to present as female" etc and I just wanted to mention that being trans is not a choice. I can't imagine anyone would choose to feel like their own body is betraying them

Some history is probably useful here. Surgical "sex reassignment" was always (and still is) an experimental therapy. It was thought it might ease a person's bodily dysphoria. It's never - to my knowledge - had thorough peer review, partly because it was pioneered at a time before a proper ethical framework was agreed around experimental medical procedures internationally.

My sense & knowledge of the transpeople I know (some quite well) is that their bodily dysphoria is indeed acutely painful, but it always seems to go with other mental health challenges - depression, borderline personality disorder and so on.

It does suggest to me that the real key to this is mental, not physical. After all, we don't aid and abet anorexics on their extreme diets - who also appear to CHOOSE not to eat, who also appear to CHOOSE to feel that their body is betraying them. Although we do tend to "blame" or "punish" anorexics.

My suspicious cynical mind suspects that the difference in treatment between these two bodily dysphorias is because the gender dysphoria is commonly or typically (until very recently) suffered by men, and anorexia is commonly a young teenage girl illness.

I follow a number of GC men/feminist allies and I've never seen any of them make threats or behave viscously towards anyone. A few can be a bit blunter in tone than many of the women but that's about it.

A couple of years back there was a long twitter thread consisting of (and I'm broad brush stereotyping here) Tommy Robinson/Britain First type men. As an aside from their usual favourite topics some kind of article had caught their attention. I can't remember what it was about but it involved a very much 'non passing' TW.

The replies were pretty awful and deeply derogatory. Yet funnily enough none of the usual TRAs or trans orgs challenged them or highlighted the abuse. No pushback for transphobia or violent language. Nothing.

Yet women can tweet about periods or FGM and be piled on the way JKR was.

Those are the type of men that TW have something to fear from yet 100% of the resources and energy are instead spent on targeting women, our language and our rights as enshrined in law. Why is that?

The amount of time and money poured into the efforts to punch down onto women by TRA orgs could have built gender neutral third spaces and trans refuges the length and breadth of the country. Health care and the oft cited long waiting lists for treatment could have been tackled.

But that's not what they did and to quote Lachlan Stuart "that's not what they're interested in'.

medium.com/@lachlanstuart/the-confessions-of-a-transphobe-b4942c06e6e4

But it dismayed trans people, according to Heather’s account and the actions of pop-up people like Ellie-Mae and her ilk. It dismayed the pop up people and LGBT Labour because it was the removal of the established legal rights of women that interested them.

Nowhere, ever, have I seen any recognition from any of them of the astonishingly bold, tangible and very expensive commitment that we gave to improve the lives of trans people by ensuring adequate and much improved access to health care services.

It’s not because they didn’t know.

It’s because that’s not what they’re interested in.

[quote zscaler]@whatashower

Here are some examples:

www.thecomet.net/news/transgender-twitter-row-ends-in-hitchin-mother-conditional-discharge-1-6518808

crafty.diply.com/103423/non-binary-model-uses-compassion-and-understanding-to-bond-with-/amp[/quote]
I think that you will find that Raindove actually did this as a PR stunt and it was a lie.

www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/12/model-rain-dove-confesses-lying-fans-accusations-faked-viral-social-media-posts/

a woman who ended up in a court for her hate speech towards a trans woman

Is that a notorious transwoman who likes to play at being a lawyer, and has past convictions for fraud?

XX females can menstruate unless some medical reason prevents this, and are no longer able to after they have reached menopause

XY males are incapable of menstruating

No amount of word play, political correctness or demands to be acknowledged can ever change this

Of course this is completely true but it's biological not emotional. It's about sex not gender.

I don't believe that the vast vast majority of trans people have it anything other than very very hard. I don't believe that any more than a handful want to be trans, I imagine they would give anything not.to feel the way they do. I don't judge them for being trans and I have no objection to referring to trans people using the gender pronouns they would like so therefore there are men who can menstruate, trans men.

Saying that does not mean that I don't have an issue with the sporting thing, I do actually, I am also concerned about the risk in prisons although the changing room/toilet risk has been blown out of all proportion. If a person really wanted to harm women in a changing room.or toilet cubicle they wouldn't be stopped by the fact that they are not officially "allowed" in.

It's ok to questions specific issues surrounding the transgender debate but some people on here are taking it to absolutely ridiculous extremes. There are transmen and transwomen so suggesting that it's all about men eroding our rights is nonsense.

@Frozenfan2019

XX females can menstruate unless some medical reason prevents this, and are no longer able to after they have reached menopause

XY males are incapable of menstruating

No amount of word play, political correctness or demands to be acknowledged can ever change this

Of course this is completely true but it's biological not emotional. It's about sex not gender.

I don't believe that the vast vast majority of trans people have it anything other than very very hard. I don't believe that any more than a handful want to be trans, I imagine they would give anything not.to feel the way they do. I don't judge them for being trans and I have no objection to referring to trans people using the gender pronouns they would like so therefore there are men who can menstruate, trans men.

Saying that does not mean that I don't have an issue with the sporting thing, I do actually, I am also concerned about the risk in prisons although the changing room/toilet risk has been blown out of all proportion. If a person really wanted to harm women in a changing room.or toilet cubicle they wouldn't be stopped by the fact that they are not officially "allowed" in.

It's ok to questions specific issues surrounding the transgender debate but some people on here are taking it to absolutely ridiculous extremes. There are transmen and transwomen so suggesting that it's all about men eroding our rights is nonsense.

Frozen this is the feminist section where we're concerned with issues affecting women.

We know it's 'not all transwomen'. But women have fought for hundreds of years for our rights. Our own spaces for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety. Those rights are not your to give away.

Frozenfan

I completely empathise with transexuals, their inner conflict, their mental health struggles and their daily battles to just be who they want to be.

Like you I share concerns for sport. As a once competitive sportswoman, who reached national levels in competition, I would never have won against a natal male, some of my greatest life achievements could have been taken away from me by a natal male.

Your other issues, of women being attacked by natal male bodies in natal female places such as prisons, hostels, and refuge by natal male bodies is a concern.

The issue of natal male bodies in natal female safe spaces like toilets and changing rooms, for me, isn't so much about the risk of attack but more the increase of vulnerability. The one place natal females can feel safe from natal male bodies is those, but now they must be alert in those places also. So I suppose yes there is a minor risk of physical attack, but there is now an increase of vulnerability which wasn't there before by natal male bodies. The issue also starts to be one more so, because it will seriously effect some natal females more than others. It could be that natal females who have a certain religion can now, no longer enter previous safe spaces just incase a natal male bodies person is there, it's starts to exclude natal females. So this safe space for all natal females, has now become exclusionary for some and a heightened place of vulnerability for all.

And that for me personally where the injustice lies, it's where this whole argument needs to be carefully looked at and dismantled to ensure no natal females are suddenly excluded, oppressed, disadvantaged or worse harmed. What we have now protects natal females, the barrel of a gun we are staring down, risks loosing that, and nobody wants to shoot themselves in the foot.

Sorry Frozen, but this:

Saying that does not mean that I don't have an issue with the sporting thing, I do actually, I am also concerned about the risk in prisons

...makes you as just as much of a raging, awful, deserves to be raped and die in a grease fire terfy transphobe as the rest of us.

There is NO middle ground. NO exceptions. NO "but I think...". You can not hesitate, deviate or pause for a second.

It is all or nothing and even then it will suddenly be not good enough. I saw mention that the gender extremists have turned on D Radcliffe already; after he'd played their tune quite spectacularly.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse. It's aibu. I am a woman. I am a feminist. Patronise me all you like but I disagree with you and have read and thought about this a lot. Turns out that's one is of my rights.

We know it's 'not all transwomen'.. Its hardly any who are putting us in danger however as a transwomen you have about a 40-50% chance of being a victim.of sexual assault

BuzzShitbagBobbly this is nonsense. You don't really think all transpeople hold one single opinion on this do you? Yes there's an outspoken group like that but that's not everyone. I imagine it's defensive as much as anything. I mean imagine coming upon this thread as trans person for example. I would be defensive too.