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Please help me understand the transgender issue

452 replies

Flippetydip · 11/06/2020 10:16

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

OP posts:
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12
AnyOldPrion · 11/06/2020 21:05

But, in general, white people who identify into or appropriate black culture benefit from it;

I know this is from a few pages back, but the discussion about transracialism being different interested me and I read one of the linked articles as well as the subsequent discussion.

The statement above makes a huge assumption about people identifying as another race. The people who have been caught and publicised for identifying into black culture have been called out because they were benefitting from it.

But should we extrapolate from the people who have been caught and publicised for negative reasons? We are regularly reminded that we shouldn’t tar everyone with the same brush and make assumptions. How do we know there aren’t many other people who are quietly blending in as having a different race, simply because they feel more comfortable doing so? Just because it’s not as visible, doesn’t mean these people don't exist.

Compare that now to the transgender situation. I think one reason we are seeing backlash against transgender culture now is that we have passed that time period when transsexuals were quietly blending in, simply because they felt more comfortable doing so and have moved into a time when men who claim to be women ARE regularly benefitting, whether that be in sports, in awards, or in being placed in a nicer prison with women who are weaker than you, rather than with potentially hostile men. And don't bother trying to argue that all the men included in those top 100 lists and winning prizes deserve to be there on merit. They are mainly there through male privilege and due to the idea that any man who ‘lowers himself’ by trying to be woman-like must be terribly brave.

I think the current backlash is absolutely based on the same principles as the anger against the transracial people who were caught out. Most people have an instinctive antipathy to anything that seems unfair. So men taking things that were set up to improve equality between the sexes was always going to result in anger.

The argument that one cannot identify into a different race due to ancestry? Who made that rule? Why is ancestry more important in how you feel than hugely significant biological differences.

And the suggestion that it’s not the same, because one of these is much more painful? Firstly, how do you know? Have you spoken to any people who identify as a different race? Have you tried to understand how they feel, or are you potentially basing your opinion of a community on a few bad apples?

And also the crux of the argument that it’s painful leads us right back to the reality of these men not being women, but that they are going through so much distress that we must respect their pain and therefore centre them and give them what they want. And then there are those who claim anyone can be trans... no GD required... and we’re back with conflicting histories, used in turn even though they are contradictory.

Funnily enough, the third reason (first in the article) for suggesting that these two things are different is the accusation that stealing the word transracial from a group of oppressed people is offensive. This made me roll my eyes.

Pot, meet kettle....

PotholeParadise · 11/06/2020 21:07

@zscaler

Ok - we don’t have to agree with each other on this. But I have seen so much abusive, threatening and violent things said to trans people and TRAs that I can say from my own personal experience that I know it to be a serious problem for both sides of this issue.
Yes. So have I. I used to be really, really pro-trans because of it.

But it was never feminists saying they would correctively rape transmen. It wasn't feminists making jokes at their expense. It wasn't feminists making derogatory comments about wanting 'to try a transwoman out'. It isn't feminists who murder transsexuals who've been forced to turn to sex work. It isn't feminists who beat up transwomen after going on a date with them and finding out that they're trans.

I doubt that a single one of the vile people who have commited trans-bashing ever owned a copy of the Female Eunuch, much less has read it.

So why, why, why is the focus on 'TERFs'?

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 11/06/2020 21:08

Its hardly any who are putting us in danger however as a transwomen you have about a 40-50% chance of being a victim.of sexual assault

Source? Timeframe? Country?

mummmy2017 · 11/06/2020 21:12

Can you imagine Darwin turning in his grave.
His whole life was about evolution, and all based on there being females who produce the eggs and the male who produce the sperm.
Without one of each there is no next generation, but hey let's pretend, because of the Trans community.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 11/06/2020 21:16

BuzzShitbagBobbly this is nonsense.

Fine. Post your statement on Twitter as a female and see what reaction you get and from who.

And if it's just one small outspoken group I'm sure you will be more than deluged with people defending you, putting them right and generally supporting your words.

You won't believe the women on here it's already happened to, and you're so convinced it's a minor group, so do it yourself.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2020 21:18

Frozen oops, mixed up my feminist section and AIBU threads. My bad.

If transwomen are at risk of violence that's not a problem solved by telling women to budge over. We're not human shields to protect men from other men.

Frozenfan2019 · 11/06/2020 21:27

ShootsFruitAndLeaves

My source is a US website.
www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

Twitter is unfortunately not representative of society. If it was then according to my twitter feed Jeremy Corbyn would have had a landslide victory last year. Unfortunately I do think like minded people club together and bully others. They all descend when they see one of them being criticised or "attacked" it's exactly the same in groups with the same political persuasion or the same views about Brexit. It's isn't what society is really like. I don't think people on the whole all accept the idea that transwomen should have exactly the same experience of life as natal women,I do think that most people think it can be resolved without all this hate and that actually most transpeople just want to get on with their lives in relative peace and all this fighting is a defence at what they perceive to be oppression.

By oppressing transwomen we are also oppressing transmen who are biologically born as females. That's relevant even if this were on the feminist board.

PotholeParadise · 11/06/2020 21:42

Frozenfan2019

The group of people who think natal girls should be entitled to the same experience of life as natal boys are... feminists.

For example, a 12 year old girl and a 12 year old boy should both be able to walk to school in school uniform without being harassed with ribald comments by passing drivers.

But you're probably quite right; people on the whole don't accept this idea of equality or that women end up experiencing life quite differently.

ShootsFruitAndLeaves · 11/06/2020 21:52

I see @Frozenfan2019

So

"The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey found that 47% of transgender people are sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime."

That survey doesn't seem to be robust. In general to find this sort of thing you'd ask a larger population and then compare the trans subsample to the wider population.

Frozenfan2019 · 11/06/2020 22:05

PotholeParadise

Either you misunderstood me or I am misunderstanding you. I meant that most people accept that transgender individuals won't have the same experience of life because of everything they will experience in getting to the point of facing their position as transgender. Most people want them to have as close to that as possible within the bounds of what's reasonable, it's what people consider reasonable that is the point of debate.

It's right to have a debate about whether or not transwomen should enter female prisons for example. Imo it's not reasonable to have a debate about whether transmen menstruate. They do. Its bigoted to deny transmens existence in the same way as someone who thinks white people are the superior race or gay people are "unnatural" it should be challenged. We can't debate facts. We can debate the detail of how that plays out in real life.

It doesn't mean women can't questions things, as the OP is. It means someone in the public eye should think carefully before tweeting something offensive which helps no one and doesn't add to the debate. She has the right to that opinion. Nigel Farage has the right to his opinion. The right thing to do is respect that there will be people affected by tweeting something inflammatory. JKR added context in her essay but her tweet wasn't contextualised and was just a cheap dig at transmen.

Enderthedragon · 11/06/2020 22:13

JKR added context in her essay but her tweet wasn't contextualised and was just a cheap dig at transmen.

And yet, when Daniel Radcliffe spoke out in response to her tweets, he didn't even mention transmen? He just said 'transwomen are women'. So who is it that is denying the existence of transmen again?

Frozenfan2019 · 11/06/2020 22:24

Enderthedragon well he was very wrong to do that and you are right to pull that up. I hope others have actually.

Frozenfan2019 · 11/06/2020 22:28

I've just tried to look for the tweet to comment on it and I can't find it. Just a reference to an essay.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/06/2020 22:43

I've regularly wondered the following, and I sincerely hope it's not an offensive question, it just really makes me wonder;

If forms that required gender to be identified (ie. for medical reasons, applications for certain types of jobs) didn't ask for 'sex/gender' and instead asked people to tick their 'gender at birth', would that be a good workaround for some of the problems that are faced by trans people?

I also feel that approach could help to minimise discrimination in job applications, because the employer would see what the person was when they were born, but couldn't assume that's what their gender is now, and therefore couldn't favour a man over a woman or disregard trans people's applications. Also a few important medical conditions may be biologically gender specific so it would help people to be treated properly if they became unwell.
If forms had to ask that as standard, there could be a lot less problems. Or does that sound silly? It's just a thought I'm hoping to have some clarification on, and if I am causing offence by asking then I apologise in advance and withdraw my question.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/06/2020 22:56

Actually perhaps that would be better as 'physiological gender at birth' as I understand that there are trans people who feel that they have been in the wrong gendered body from birth.

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 23:01

Nobody has a gender at birth.
They have an observed sex.

If knowing sex is irrelevant for particular form filling purposes, don't ask it.

If knowing sex is relevant, ask away.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/06/2020 23:07

@Melia100 I apologise as i get very confused about the sex/gender distinction. I hope that as generations progress, ignorance about that type of thing becomes a lot less frequent.

I don't think asking a person's gender/observed sex is relevant on most job applications, and in things like a census it would be better to have choices for every single category to gain a good picture of the population in the country.

There are times when it is relevant to ask though, and I've often thought that asking for physiological gender or observed sex at birth might help to deal with just a few of the problems that trans people and non trans people experience.

Cremebrule · 11/06/2020 23:15

The thing I don’t understand is why people have stuck their head in the sand about the prospect of men abusing self identification? This is nothing to do with trans rights in of itself but is much more about a loophole that could be exploited.

You then have to weigh up the potential risks- is what is the risk/benefit to the trans community versus the risk/benefit to women. There seems to be a real fear to do that risk/benefit analysis and to understand the issue from all angles. Eg how many trans women might benefit from using female spaces versus how many woman might be harmed by men accessing those spaces? What happens to women’s sport if men abuse self ID to access scholarships, funding etc.

I have no issue with accepting people wanting to be x or y gender. I would never misgender someone and would want to be as inclusive as possible but I don’t understand why it is taboo to talk about the risks that men will abuse self ID.

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/06/2020 23:18

@Cremebrule I totally agree with everything you've just said. I consider it to be similar to the looters exploiting the BLM protests. It's completely unnecessary, insensitive and counter productive. But that's the point I think - the people who choose to exploit these things have no intention of being sensitive and I imagine some are even trying to derail all progress by causing so many problems, such as the ones you mentioned.

3LittleMonkeyz · 11/06/2020 23:20

www.instagram.com/p/CBTpgbnFBpv/?igshid=150r9p184cbwy

I don't know why it can't be the same with women/transgender

AMemeByAnyOtherName · 11/06/2020 23:22

Oh and sorry I forgot to add: in a case where a man (let's say) decided to 'become transgender' in order to gain more opportunities to abuse people, that man would deliberately use emotional blackmail to make sure he can continue taking advantage.

I imagine that somebody who wanted to take advantage of the female toilets to commit assaults, would probably have the loudest voice when it comes to taking that opportunity away, which is a shame as it prevents people with really concerns and issues from having much of a voice at all.

nancybotwinbloom · 11/06/2020 23:51

I just don't get when gender became more important than biology though.

From what I have read, gender is a social construct or how you feel. I couldn't know how a man felt because I'm not a man. Same as I couldn't know how it feels to experience something I haven't experienced. I can guess and emphasise with people but not know if you see what I mean. Because in my head I don't think I think like a women as such I just think.

Doesn't making gender the priority over biological sex make a mockery of the gender pay gap as all the men could just say we are women now and then there is no gap? Shouldn't it be the sex pay gap.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 11/06/2020 23:56

If knowing sex is irrelevant for particular form filling purposes, don't ask it.

These were my options on a "post-lockdown thoughts" survey earlier. Sex would have been relevant, based on the questions asked. Special inside undefinable ladyfeelz gender identity? Not one iota of use to the analysis.

Please help me understand the transgender issue
Winesalot · 12/06/2020 00:27

nancybotwinbloom there has also been a rise in saying ‘sex is a social construct’. And sex on a spectrum too. It is bonkers. Reaching for revisionist theories to fit their thinking.

DressingGownofDoom · 12/06/2020 00:35

'Mumsnet is a bad place to find genuine responses to these queries OP - it has a very strong anti-trans rights slant.'

Pro women's rights does not equal anti-trans rights. How many fucking times.