Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

Weirdly I also believe the push to get biological male bodies in to biological female spaces will ironically endanger transexual further.

Example.

In my late teens I was in a female only changing room, women and children. Next minute everyone was screaming I looked to the floor to see the biggest spider I have ever seen on UK soil 😂 it genuinely looked like a camel spider from Afghanistan, I mean hysteria broke out. Next minute men piled in to this changing room from the pool side, from the entry doors. Men associated to the women and children in that changing room, because all they could hear was hysterical screaming and they ran in to white knight the situation. Fair enough you can argue they had no right to make entry, but the hysterical screams was a sign "something was wrong" to them. Once they arrived they were a bit confused, told us all to calm down and got rid of Mr 8 legs.

Now imagine an argument breaks out between a biological female and a biological male, fully intact, cué screams and shouting. Men rush in, they asses the situation in that split second "there's a biological man, naked in the changing room" they take action. Remove the biological man, maybe even assault him.

Thing is as much as this is getting pushed by TRA's Joe public, the silent minority just won't get it, naked biological man in biological female space = wrong. Outside echo-chambers this is the reality.

This is what the poster I was responding to stated:

Its the 'activism' that really scares me. How can this level of anger, hate, abuse and clear misogyny be tolerated, indulged and implicitly validated? It is absolutely terrifying. Why is this hate speech legal? I am talking about the tweets and other social media replies to people who have respectfully expressed their views.

Are these activists representative of the broader transgender community? If you are transgender do you think this is justified and constructive?

This is not a goady post. Genuinely, please can someone explain how this vitriol is ok?

I responded that it’s not ok, and that it’s not ok regardless of who is being vitriolic or abusive. Why do you think that’s inappropriate? When there is so much hatred and vitriol on both sides of this debate, why is it inappropriate to point out that it’s unacceptable regardless of who is perpetrating it?

I believe that there is still male privilege in society.
I also believe that the idea that someone would give up these advantages so that they can reap the societal benefits that women have is a bit of a stretch.
I also believe that the vast majority of trans people (like all people) wish to live out their lives quietly.

Silent majority not minority apologies

@DumbledoreAskedCalmly you’ve completely articulated how I feel about this topic. I’m generally considered “woke” and am always on the left side of arguments...except for on this trans/feminism debate. Which confuses me! And the more I read the more I identify with the feminist side rather than the radical trans side.

I fully respect trans individuals and their right to dress and act as they please. Of course men should be able to wear dresses and make up if they want to, and they should absolutely be protected from violence, discrimination in the workplace etc. But they are still not women! And I don’t understand why it’s hateful to protect female spaces from men, including men who identify as women.

I also don’t understand why it’s ok to say you identify as another gender but not as another race.

Because when you said "I assume you also find they horrifying and unacceptable and simply forgot to mention it.", that's where I lost you. I feel it's surely okay to denounce abuse in one setting without the need to address abuse that takes place in every other setting.

@dobbyssoc

What would some of you do if your son came to you and wanted to be a woman? Would you tell him to get back in his box?

I'd tell him how much I loved him, that life will be hard and that he will have to face some opinions that he might find difficult. But that facing them rather than censoring them will make life more palatable.

So pretty much what I tell my kids anyway.

It's very simples.

Men are still controlling women.

Because said men are now women, and women have been renamed cis women, and told to shut up.

Or we're transphobic.

Normally on the left of everything, but on this, I just can't do it.

@zscaler I was asking specifically about activists because I am trying to understand activists. And, in my (no doubt limited) social media bubble hate comments of any kind are routinely deleted, posters banned, etc. I am sorry and equally shocked if temperate posts by transgender people/trans rights activists are also routinely being met by hate and death threats. I honestly havent seen that in my admittedly limited experience.

You have answered my question, thank you and I am glad to hear you agree vitriol and abuse isn't acceptable, which is reassuring.

I have found this thread interesting. Thanks to all contributors.
I have 2 questions. Firstly, if somebody has true hatred of the genitalia they were born with, how does 'living as the opposite sex (gender?) help?
And secondly, what does (say) living as a woman really look like, without gender stereotyping?

Because when you said "I assume you also find they horrifying and unacceptable and simply forgot to mention it.", that's where I lost you. I feel it's surely okay to denounce abuse in one setting without the need to address abuse that takes place in every other setting.

But we are taking about the same setting.

And secondly, what does (say) living as a woman really look like, without gender stereotyping?

^THIS with a thousand fucking bells on

@Fivefourthree

I have found this thread interesting. Thanks to all contributors. I have 2 questions. Firstly, if somebody has true hatred of the genitalia they were born with, how does 'living as the opposite sex (gender?) help? And secondly, what does (say) living as a woman really look like, without gender stereotyping?

I am yet to see a coherent argument on this that does not revolve around regressive gender stereotypes.

@whatashower

Here are some examples:

www.thecomet.net/news/transgender-twitter-row-ends-in-hitchin-mother-conditional-discharge-1-6518808

crafty.diply.com/103423/non-binary-model-uses-compassion-and-understanding-to-bond-with-/amp

Then you would loose your child. Plain and simple.

Given the huge majority of gender questioning teens effectively 'grow out of it' and are usually just gay..I don't see how this would happen.

Detransitioners often say too, that part of what helped them to come to terms with themselves was their parents being supportive, but not all 'oh yes, you are definitely the opposite sex!'

First of all can I apologise if I use the wrong terms?

I think the only issue I have with any of this is the exploitation of Trans Rights. And by that I mean, people who are pretending to be someone they aren't in order to There needs to be some safeguarding measures put in place to protect others. I'm sorry, but I would prefer NOT to be in any changing room with someone who has a penis, and I most certainly would not want my daughter there either.

I'm not saying that every Trans Woman is going to attack or sexually assault me, but there will be the very few who will be going out looking to do this. Its the same as men, not every man is a rapist, but we still protect ourselves when we are leaving the house INCASE it happens.

An argument for this is, people who work with children. Not all of us are going to attack or sexually assault a child, but unfortunately as above there will still be the very few who will be looking to do this. To combat this, children are safeguarded, and rightly so. I just wish the same protection could be afforded to women, and that they be given the choice on who they share their personal space with.

The goal of the "you will lose your child" messages is to scare you into doing things that you strongly suspect are not right for your child. The appropriate response if posted here would no doubt be deleted, so I'll just say "nope, not doing that" instead.

@okiedokieme , @Ninkanink and @DumbledoreAskedCalmly

I agree with you 'guys' and JK Rowling; however, I strongly identify as a woman - not a CIS or a natal one (unnecessary terms). I was born & raised as a girl and became a woman (didn't feel much like one to start, but am definitely a woman with the hormones to go!).

I personally, don't hold with the loud banging noise of the transgender rights brigade - but have no issue with transgender individuals who respect women's rights and space.

I annoys me that so much energy is taken up with the complex issue, without any real thought into how the practical consequences will affect women and girls physical and emotional well-being as well as their social standing.

In too many cultures round the world & in the West, women are belittled & ignored, and that is without talking about the verbal and physical abuse many have to put up with.
Surely, this is far more important, than screaming about access to loos & the right to self-identify. It is simple, campaign for separate multi-sex loos or changing rooms, but don't take away from the existing ladies loos or changing rooms - cos' there have never been enough when you consider the level of our need is physically more.

As for self-identification, what was wrong with the previous transition period, enabling people to 'try before they buy! - surely, it is important to dip into life-changing decisions gradually, with all the medical and psychological input they can get.

And, have people forgotten the sports issue - was that ever resolved? Or doesn't it matter anymore, cos' it's just women moaning!

To combat this, children are safeguarded, and rightly so

Unfortunately that safeguarding goes flying out the window the minute the magic T word is invoked.

Children are encouraged to keep secrets from parents (and education staff forbidden from saying anything), told they can run away and join their new "glitter family", girls are told they are the ones with a problem if they try and assert boundaries/say no etc.

That's before you get to potential lifelong infertility and a whole host of quite horrendous other medical issues based round giving a child the right to demand off-label cancer drugs and irreversible, drastic surgery without the safeguarding their (literally) childish minds.

[quote whatashower]@zscaler I was asking specifically about activists because I am trying to understand activists. And, in my (no doubt limited) social media bubble hate comments of any kind are routinely deleted, posters banned, etc. I am sorry and equally shocked if temperate posts by transgender people/trans rights activists are also routinely being met by hate and death threats. I honestly havent seen that in my admittedly limited experience.

You have answered my question, thank you and I am glad to hear you agree vitriol and abuse isn't acceptable, which is reassuring.[/quote]
They're not. Women aren't making death and rape threats

This both sides thing is like something out of the Trump playbook.

They're not. Women aren't making death and rape threats

This both sides thing is like something out of the Trump playbook.

So just to confirm, is your position that GC / Anti trans people experience abuse and vitriol at the hands of transgender people and TRAs, but you don’t think trans people experience a comparable level of abuse in return?

I would consider that to be a wholly inaccurate characterisation of the issue. I have seen myself the hideous rape threats, death threats, threats of violence, threats of doxxing, racist and sexist language used towards activists like Munroe Bergdorf, Rain Dove, Laverne Cox, Kenny Ethan Jones and others.

I have also see disgusting threats and abuse towards GC and anti-trans activists, so I recognise it as a two way street. It’s all horrendous, it should all be condemned.

I don’t see how you can dispute that it’s all a problem which should be condemned unless there’s an agenda at play?

For those new to the topic, I’d highly recommend reading some of the writings by Ray Blanchard, a Canadian gender specialist, who has studied transsexuals for many years. He states that there are two types of gender dysphoria in men:

1. homosexual transsexuals who are attracted exclusively to men, and who seek sex reassignment surgery because they are feminine in both behavior and appearance; and

1. autogynephilic transsexuals who are sexually aroused at the idea of having a female body and rarely seek surgery.

Of course he has been ostracised by the TRA community for daring to say this.

When there is so much hatred and vitriol on both sides of this debate, why is it inappropriate to point out that it’s unacceptable regardless of who is perpetrating it?

Abuse is wrong no matter who its directed towards and who its from. But its quite disingenuous to pretend this is a both are as bad as each other situation, when evidence shows this is very much not the case. The endless rape threats, come from one side, the actual violence too, the misogynistic language..yeah some GC people might be mean and a bit blunt, which can be hurtful to trans people, but the behaviour is just polar opposites really. But people like to try and make out its 'both sides'. Its not. And its wrong wherever it comes from, even if it was feminists threatening death and violence to TRAs.

Ok - we don’t have to agree with each other on this. But I have seen so much abusive, threatening and violent things said to trans people and TRAs that I can say from my own personal experience that I know it to be a serious problem for both sides of this issue.

But men have prostates.
And yet they're still allowed to be called men.
Not prostaters or ejaculators.

But transwomen ejaculate and transmen don't, so surely ejaculators is a better word than man.
In fact 'men have prostates' is downright offensive. Those men who say that, on their website for prostate cancer are bigots and monsters.