Please help me understand the transgender issue

[Flippetydip]

I fully admit that I don't understand this issue fully at all. I consider myself fairly liberal but I do not feel that this is fair. It seems to be the Emperor's new clothes. The fact that the comments towards JKR on Twitter are so full of vitriol does not persuade me towards the thinking of those shouting them.

So my questions:

Emma Watson saying on Twitter
"Transwomen are who they say they are"
If I say I am a size 8, intellectually brilliant woman, does that make me so? (Currently size 12, edging towards a 14 and intellectually fairly mediocre).

What is the difference between appropriation of sex and appropriation of race?
If I say I am black and I'm not, why is that so horrific, and yet if I am a man and say I'm a woman, that is OK?

Why is JKR wrong to say that women menstruate? Surely that is just biological fact.

@bebanjo apologies, I’m not really sure what you’re referring to. If you can link me to the article you want to discuss to I can try to respond.

I want to thank OP for her post, which wholly reflects my current lack of comprehension and for the mainly educational replies which are helping me to understand more.

What I struggle with most is not the basic understanding that there is serious debate and struggle for societal and legal affirmation of equality and antidiscrimination. And changes in definitions and policies can be contentious whatever the willingness to adapt and embrace.

Its the 'activism' that really scares me. How can this level of anger, hate, abuse and clear misogyny be tolerated, indulged and implicitly validated? It is absolutely terrifying. Why is this hate speech legal? I am talking about the tweets and other social media replies to people who have respectfully expressed their views.

Are these activists representative of the broader transgender community? If you are transgender do you think this is justified and constructive?

This is not a goady post. Genuinely, please can someone explain how this vitriol is ok?

There's a lot of language in this thread about choice "if a man CHOOSES to present as female" etc and I just wanted to mention that being trans is not a choice. I can't imagine anyone would choose to feel like their own body is betraying them.

“You would lose your son”.

Just another variation on the emotional blackmail that is “better a living daughter than a dead son”.

The suicide stats have been debunked dobbyssoc, I’m more than happy to repost the analysis for you if you like.

Wait, dobby, mate - you keep your children in a box?

That's just not right. Please let them out immediately.

Genuinely, please can someone explain how this vitriol is ok?

It’s not. Nor is it ok when transgender people and trans activists are attacked with vitriol and abuse. I assume you also find they horrifying and unacceptable and simply forgot to mention it.

@zscaler

Your statements were loud and clear. You said this place has a very strong anti-trans rights slant. Not a great deal different from stating this place is transphobic. I used one word, which you didn’t use but which this implied and you are frothing. Is there a froth emoji?

The problem I have with this is that you accused me of speaking for you, defining you, and being close to the kind of person you could imagine threatening you. None of those accusations were remotely true. You’ve backtracked from that position now and seem to simply be objecting to the fact that I consider mumsnet transphobic. You don’t have to agree with that opinion but I am, nonetheless, entitled to hold and express it.

I have back tracked from nothing and I have already explained myself enough to know this. Anyway nice as this discussion between us has been, I’m going to end it here as you clearly don’t give a shit about my opinion or my needs as a natal woman.

Please take your questions elsehwere OP

And to think people accuse FWR of being unwelcoming. AIBU is a bloody bear pit!

(Runs back to FWR where someone has recently offered to make tea.)

@CaveMum didn't say they would be dead did I?
Can you point to exactly where I've said that because I'm sure I didn't.
By loose I mean the relationship, if you are truly against them being who they feel they are then you will loose the relationship. I've seen children never speak to their parents again, never see them again because of their unwillingness to accept their children.

I have back tracked from nothing and I have already explained myself enough to know this. Anyway nice as this discussion between us has been, I’m going to end it here as you clearly don’t give a shit about my opinion or my needs as a natal woman

Yes, I thought you might conveniently sidle out Of the conversation when you realised you can’t back up any of your mad accusations. Hilarious of you to accuse me of ‘frothing’ when you’re the person who took a general opinion about the slant of this site and used it as a springboard to accuse me of saying all kids of things I never even mentioned, but such is often the way of the world.

So @dobbyssoc you think it is the role of the parent to lie to their children? Because that is what you are saying, you want me to lie to my theoretical trans child and tell him “of course you can become a woman, just pop this pill and hey presto there you go.”

Or rather is it my duty as a parent to ground my child in reality (which is what biology is) whilst also allowing him to express himself in whatever way (as long as it’s legal) he sees fit.

Enjoy the debate. Sadly, it isn't one that females are 'allowed' to have publically anywhere else.

Why is this hate speech legal?

From the CPS website:

In England and Wales the monitored strands of hate crime are:
racially and religiously aggravated;
homophobic, biphobic and transphobic; and
disability hate crime.

We don’t bother monitoring sexist hate crime.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Please take your questions elsehwere OP

And to think people accuse FWR of being unwelcoming. AIBU is a bloody bear pit!

(Runs back to FWR where someone has recently offered to make tea.)

Tea, you say?

Yeah AIBU is much more hostile than FWR. I find it funny when people call the posters on FWR mean for calmly stating facts as it makes it clear they are not MNers.

And, I peeked into the dog board once and have never been back

There's a lot of language in this thread about choice "if a man CHOOSES to present as female" etc and I just wanted to mention that being trans is not a choice. I can't imagine anyone would choose to feel like their own body is betraying them.

Hang on, I thought it was transphobic now to say that being trans is caused by gender dysphoria, that it is a mental health issue?

"Genuinely, please can someone explain how this vitriol is ok?

It’s not. Nor is it ok when transgender people and trans activists are attacked with vitriol and abuse. I assume you also find they horrifying and unacceptable and simply forgot to mention it."

Please tell me this isn't another way of saying the abuse here will continue until abuse elsewhere goes away? Because that's never appropriate. Ever.

I've seen children never speak to their parents again, never see them again because of their unwillingness to accept their children.

Unwilling to accept their children? Or unwilling to lie to their children and tell them that they can change sex, and see them go down a lifelong path of medicalisation, surgery, sexual dysfunction and infertility?

Nor is it ok when transgender people and trans activists are attacked with vitriol and abuse.

Can you please link to all the pages/tweets/websites/police reports/etc where this is, so feminists/MNers can publicly denounce it and remove any possibility of mistaken association with those comments?

I've seen children never speak to their parents again, never see them again because of their unwillingness to accept their children.

This isn't advice to parents, it's a threat, and that's not very kind at all.

Anyway - I have a question to ask those more knowledgeable than me.

Is it transphobic to be vocally concerned about your own individual rights being affected due to others wanting access to said rights?

Personally, I hope that my worries and concerns aren't tarred with the same brush as the vile hatred and abuse some people have towards transgender people.

Is it transphobic to be vocally concerned about your own individual rights being affected due to others wanting access to said rights?

Yes, absolutely.

Fairplay for Women are regularly referred to as 'a transphobic hate group'.

I genuinely think we will not stop this movement for the removal of recognition of sex. It's literally going to have to be a "told you so" situation in the end.

So when these woke people have children and young Traxi who is a biological female, and plays rugby receives a dislocated hip from a biological male ending her sporting career. They will ask why he was ever on the field.

When women are subject to voyerism by biological men in female changing rooms. And become too scared to enter them again. They will question why penises are in their safe spaces.

When female prisoners are sexually abused time and time again.

When biological females are under-represented on boards of directors and transexuals over-represented.

When someone goes to a rape crisis center and examined by Barry in a dress, and is vunerable yet again.

When women fleeing domestic violence are housed in refuges with biological men who slam doors in anger and shout with a biological male voice, making it a triggering environment.

We will have to just say told you so. 🤦🏻‍♀️

Please tell me this isn't another way of saying the abuse here will continue until abuse elsewhere goes away? Because that's never appropriate. Ever.

Eh?

I said vitriol and abuse isn’t acceptable. Whether that’s transgender people / trans rights activists being vitriolic and abusive to gender critical / anti trans rights people, or gender critical / anti trans rights people being vitriolic and abusive to transgender people / trans rights activists. None of it’s acceptable. It’s not a controversial position.

@zscaler there was a very clear implication in your response that the person asking if there was a need for vitriol here, should have also acknowledged hatred and vitriol towards transgender people in general in her statement.

That's inappropriate.

Perhaps you were angry when you said it but it's still not appropriate.

We will have to just say told you so.

All those things are happening already.