The Queen Victoria statue in Leeds

[Sugarplumfairy65]

Her statue has been vandalised with graffiti. The BLM logo and slave trader spray painted all over it. Why?

@winewolfhowls

I think the way forward is to reconsider what statues are FOR. They should not be for heroes as most historical figures and indeed most people, are flawed, but they should be for people who were SIGNIFICANT in some way. Then, a plaque can explain their actions, importance and other failings too. This is the best approach to really educate people about our history.

This!

No doubt you think this is less effective than a huge statue celebrating Pol Pot

@zscaler

Are you deliberately misinterpreting @Melia100's point? One of the things that the Khmer Rouge did was to attempt to wipe out Cambodia's imperial past. It did this through smashing up and tearing down anything which offended its despotic ruler. The UK is not a totalitarian state. It is a democracy. There are no statues of significant historical figures who will pass the judgement of the 21st century. Why should a tiny minority of some of the most privileged 0.0001 percent people on the planet; such as those at the vanguard of the Cecil Rhodes campaign; dictate the fate of the UK's statues?

I thought Queen Victoria (or maybe Albert?) was one of the drivers behind the abolition of slavery?

Empire slavery was abolished in 1834 when Princess Evangeline of Kent was fourteen years old.

As Queen, Victoria was very keen on the work of Christian missionaries in Africa including the struggle of the likes of David Livingstone to supress the Arab Slave Trade in East Africa. She also met with several of her subject royals including (then ex-) King Cetshwayo of the Zulu who she received with full honours.

Famine Queen

Khaleefah Abdul-Majid I, Sultan of an Ottoman Empire centuries past its own prime, was so moved by the Irish plight that he offered £10,000 (the equivalent today of around €1m) to help ease the suffering. Queen Victoria, upon learning of this, requested that he reduce his donation to a more modest £1,000, so as not to embarrass her own relatively meagre offering of £2,000. Reluctantly, the Sultan agreed, but bolstered his contribution by secretly sending five ships loaded with food.

For the Sultan, “compelled by my religion to observe the laws of hospitality”, empathy overrode any risk. The British fleet attempted a blockade but, according to the story, the Turkish ships made it through the line, sailed up the Boyne and docked in Drogheda to unload their cargo of aid.

www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/turkish-aid-to-irish-famine-was-highest-form-of-compassion-275281.html

Add famine queen to her plaques, I literally don't care about individual statues; what I do care about is a rising tide of anti-democratic attitudes, and this is just one manifestation of those attitudes.

I wonder how many of BLM supporters stand by liberal abortion policies, which has and is killing millions of black (in particular) unborn across the world. The hypocrisy is dreadful.

Her statue has been vandalised with graffiti. The BLM logo and slave trader spray painted all over it. Why?

Because they're thick and will seek any excuse, hopefully someone will spray the idiots with paint, any colour.

The Abraham Lincoln statue in Parliament Square was also defaced, climbed on and gouged.

Some people are thick as shit.

Queen Victoria was 14 or 15 when slavery was abolished and became Queen 3 years after the abolition. So is unlikely she had any involvement in slavery. So whoever is vandalizing her statue is ignorant and idiotic

Famine Queen

Add famine queen to her plaques

The term "Famine Queen" comes from the lie that Victoria only donated £5 to famine relief. So no.

Peel, who's statue some also want taken down, tried to relieve famine by repeal of the corn laws. He repeatedly showed great concern at what was happening in Ireland as did many others

Because they are twats

Queen Vic was a constitutional monarch. She was not responsible for her govt's inaction and indifference during the Irish famine, and was herself never properly informed of its extent. She was the target of numerous assassination attempts by Fenian terrorists.

All people are flawed. Some are more flawed than others.Victoria was flawed. Ghandi was flawed. Martin Luther King Jr was flawed. But it's a fair debate point to ask how flawed is too much so that we're uncomfortable celebrating their strengths or place in history. Or how do we accurately talk about the good and bad in a fair and measured way.

What really intrigues me is... "what do we all take for granted as being 'ok' today that, in a hundred years from now, people will think us cruel and evil and backward for?" The things that will mean the statues of people we think of as modern day heroes, will be defaced in the future. Toppled and chucked into the sea.

What really intrigues me is... "what do we all take for granted as being 'ok' today that, in a hundred years from now, people will think us cruel and evil and backward for?"

Great point.

I suspect they will call out our catastrophic failure to address the climate crisis until it was too little and too late, not to mention the androcene mass-extinction.

Khadernawazkhan liberal abortion policies are racist now? You know they are not compulsory right? Are you arguing against black people in particular having the right to choose?

I suspect they will call out our catastrophic failure to address the climate crisis until it was too little and too late, not to mention the androcene mass-extinction.

I suspect so too. But I also wonder about things like pet ownership (I have pets). Today large numbers of people think pet ownership is fair and it's just the degree of care you give that twists the moral compass. For example, in a hundred years will we think of animals as having a right to freedom and so pet ownership itself is immoral. I'm not saying I think we will - more that I wonder how things we think are right and proper today might be viewed differently in the future.

Pets are a great example of a cultural value that might change. Our practice of bunging our elderly into death's waiting room could be another.

Queen Vic for her part was very distressed by the sight of the gorilla in London Zoo. She was ahead of her time.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Prince Phillip yet. Or are we just directing our wrath to the dearly departed.

What I am saying is that the black population in the USA has suffered HUGE demographic loss from widespread abortion, which is a 'reproductive healthcare service' that many white liberals strongly support and promote. That's the hypocrisy.

And how do you think that the average Joe in the UK will react to the attacks on Winston Churchill and Queen Victoria?

Exactly my thoughts.

The term "Famine Queen" comes from the lie that Victoria only donated £5 to famine relief.

Fair enough, the amount I know about Queen Victoria could be written on a Horrible Histories postcard.

If you are saying that equal access to abortion for women of all races, creeds and colours is actually genocide by the back door then I think it does a huge disservice to women who make that choice of their own free will due to their appraisal of their unique circumstances.

Maybe it would be better to look at why a large number of women make that choice - economic deprivation and patriarchal oppression and control of women through their reproductive capacity being huge factors across their sex.

And what is the underlying message here to black women? By taking care of your reproductive lives as you see fit, you are contributing to your own genocide because you have been brainwashed or coerced by "white liberals"?

I would be interested to hear the opinions of more black women on this line of reasoning as it is their voice that should be central in this particular argument.

and how do you think that the average Joe in the UK will react to the attacks on Winston Churchill and Queen Victoria?

It is guaranteed to cause division, anger. It seems like a calculated attempt to cause serious ructions. It is deliberately divisive because it is a deliberate attack on the symbols which are significant to millions of Brits. Is this intentional? If so, what are the motives?

"The problem is, you can't remove or erase history from sight because you aren't happy with it in today's standards"

"History wasn't always pretty or noble. I feel safe in saying that at no point in the future will humanity ever be perfect. That doesn't mean we should tear down, burn down, or attempt to erase everything from the past that we don't like."

These two I agree with. I challenge anyone to find one historical figure to make a statue off that didn't do something wrong by today's standards. Leaving these statues up of people's who's main achievements were good but had unsavoury sides (which were perfectly acceptable at the time but we have evolved to now realise they're not), does not mean we celebrate or even condone to wrong things but that we recognise their achievements whilst realising that they weren't perfect. I'm sure people we consider heroes right now will be lambasted in the future for something (eating meat, taking flights, having too many kids ect). I wholeheartedly agree with taking down the statue of prominent slave traders but not every historical figure who ever did anything other than be perfect by today's standards.

@winewolfhowls has it

' think the way forward is to reconsider what statues are FOR. They should not be for heroes as most historical figures and indeed most people, are flawed, but they should be for people who were SIGNIFICANT in some way. Then, a plaque can explain their actions, importance and other failings too. This is the best approach to really educate people about our history.'

@Leaannb Because she was a racist. She isn't immune because she has been dead for over a hundred years....I'm waiting for the vandalism of George Washington and Jefferson monuments. It's just a matter of time

Do you think religious texts should be banned then? After all, presumably they shouldn't be immune because of time? They are full of racism, misogyny, homophobia and slavery.