The Queen Victoria statue in Leeds

[Sugarplumfairy65]

Her statue has been vandalised with graffiti. The BLM logo and slave trader spray painted all over it. Why?

[Mittens030869]

* Given that slavery is condoned in the Bible, perhaps it's time to tear down the statues and effigies associated with that?*

There was a very good reason for that. The New Testament books were written during the period of the Roman Empire, when supporting revolution would have led to the slaves involved being crucified. The church at that time was very much a persecuted minority, and included a lot of slaves. (There’s no denying the fact that they became the persecutors under Christendom.)

It’s totally anachronistic to view the morals of historical characters through the lens of 2020. The mistake we made was placing historical heroes on pedestals in the first place. We need to remove their pedestals and view them in their genuine historical context. It will be uncomfortable in many cases but much more honest.

If we’re going to still have statues venerating our historical heroes in our city centres, the BAME communities should have the opportunity to put up statues that they want to erect, so that their history can be shared. And yes, there will be a lot of statues that should be removed and placed in museums instead.

[Sugarplumfairy65]

Sarah Forbes Bonetta (born “Aina”) was a child of Yoruba royalty and a princess of the Egbado clan in West Africa. When she was only four or five years old, the brutal army of Dahomey attacked her village, decapitating her parents and slaughtering her siblings.

The orphaned princess was kept as a slave in the court of King Ghezo, whose army had killed her family. He was a notorious slave trader, but Aina was apparently destined to become a human sacrifice.

It was during a visit to King Ghezo that Captain Frederick E Forbes of the Royal Navy was able to rescue her. He was on a mission to convince the King to abandon slavery, and managed to bargain for the girl’s life by convincing Ghezo to give her to Queen Victoria. He later wrote in his journal: “She would be a present from the King of the Blacks to the Queen of the Whites.” this was the only reason that King The so agreed to release her.

Forbes took her back to England, re-naming her after himself and his ship the HMS Bonetta: she became Sarah Forbes Bonetta, also nicknamed “Sally”. Forbes was very fond of his charge and impressed by her quick learning and talent for music, writing that she was a “perfect genius” was amazing strength of mind and affection.

The Queen first met Sarah at Windsor Castle on 9th November 1850. The monarch (who felt herself opposed to racism) recognised her royal blood by calling her a princess, and was extremely impressed by her intellect. Queen Victoria became Sarah’s godmother and invited her to make regular visits to Windsor.

But Sarah never actually moved in as part of the royal household: instead, the Queen found guardians to look after her, and paid for her education and upbringing.

Unfortunately, early in 1851, disaster struck when Captain Forbes died.
Around this time, Sarah developed a chronic cough. This was attributed to the climate of Great Britain, so the Queen had her sent to Sierra Leone where it was hoped that warmer temperatures might improve her health. From the ages of eight until 12 she lived unhappily in Sierra Leone, attending the Church Missionary Society school where she excelled academically.

Queen Victoria arranged for her return in 1855, and sent her to live with the middle-class Schoen family in Gillingham. Sarah remained in touch with her godmother the Queen, even attending her daughter Princess Vicky’s wedding in 1862.

[BovaryX]

And yes, there will be a lot of statues that should be removed and placed in museums instead

Why? Statues are also works of art. Why should the historical figures of the UK's complex past be removed from its public spaces?

[Melia100]

BovaryX

Glad someone else out there sees it.

[DdraigGoch]

By 'bust' I assume you mean his grave?
@user1471565182 no, I mean the massive monument that sits atop his grave. A far cry from the unmarked mass graves of those killed by communism.

[BovaryX]

Melia

I wonder if any of the enthusiasts proponents of this widespread purge are aware of the historical echoes? Doubtful. This has no democratic mandate.

[Cam77]

Better to idolize the achievements of people rather than the people themselves, who are all deeply flawed. That is a subtle difference which a statue tramples upon.

Statues elevate flawed and complex 3D humans into God like beings - while conveying the idea of a race of infallible past leaders and general deference to authority. Statues are usually commissioned because the figure(s) who order it dream of having their own one in place at a future date.

[Cam77]

@BovaryX
Democratic mandate?

Was the public consulted on their installment? Who voted for Queen Victoria by the way, and what was the democratic mandate of the British Empire?

[Cam77]

@BovaryX
“Why should the historical figures of the UK's complex past be removed from its public spaces?“

Would you advocate for statues of leading Nazis? Are they not figure of key historical figures in Germany’s complex last? The statue of the slave trader in Bristol is likely to have been as offensive to many Black British families as one of a leading Nazi would be to German Jewish families.

[Aveisenim]

Further to my last comment, my partner sent me the link to what I was on about in the early hours of this morning. I'm not even going to bother with the obvious trolling. Some fair points have been made though by those who weren't.

The abolition of slavery and serfdom

[DdraigGoch]

Worryingly, there doesn’t appear to have been much concrete progress on police brutality, deaths in custody, death by cop or any of those core issues. So maybe it’s time we set out specific goals?
Just how many "deaths by cop" are there in the UK? Excluding those who were running around using (or threatening to use) a knife or a gun at the time.

In the last 12 months, I make it zero. Police brutality is vanishingly rare in the UK these days. Try going up to a French gendarme and shouting that 'all cops are bastards'. See how many teeth you have left.

[MaleficentsCrow]

Leave them to it, they can remove some stupid statues if they want, does it really matter in the grand scheme of things.

I mean it's a bit like brushing the dust under the carpet really, rather than opening up discussion and using it as a learning experience, but each to their own.

Personally rather than hiding them in a dusty museum that hardly anybody will visit, I'd leave them on display , paint their hands red to signify blood and erect a giant sign next to them stating what they did, why they did and what we have learnt and why the statue is just one of an absolute cockwomble. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[hoxtonbabe]

@My0My

Who/how many black people have you heard say they don’t aim high because they have no role models. I don’t think your post is intentionally being goady or with bad intention but it is coming across as if you think all black people on the whole are low achievers, lack education and are unsuccessful because none of us have any guidance, or positive role models.

I can only assume you have not spent much time with Nigerian families.

The pressure to attend university, and to be successful is ridiculous. My parents were actually seen as strange in the community because they didn’t put that pressure on my sisters and I and left us to choose whatever path we wanted as long as there was a clear straight path. None of us went to university but we all did fine. I however, am typical of what a Nigerian parents does ( much to my sons annoyance ) and my eldest has just finished university with it looking like a 1st in Computer Forensics and my youngest is a top setter, and I am hoping to move him out of state school to private by doing his 13+

If we go by what you have heard, by rights my sons and my nephews won’t even get as far as college, which I can proudly say they have surpassed that despite coming from a family that didn’t have A* grades not went to university.

I do agree with you in that guidance is important, just because you may not have a job as a barrister or have degrees coming out your ears, that does not mean you don’t or can’t encourage your children/loved ones to achieve more. For example I am beyond useless at maths, but I made sure my DS had math tuition wherever I could possibly afford it even if inconsistent, and as a result of that help over the years he is now being entered into the Junior UKMT challenge. Equally I know people who are successful, well educated etc, and their offspring are lost and more interested in being on Instagram.

[Melia100]

I wonder if any of the enthusiasts proponents of this widespread purge are aware of the historical echoes?

I think 20th C Asian experiences of living under regimes like the Khmer Rouge, are not widely known, remembered, or understood by the general public. Which is unfortunate.

[redwoodmazza]

History happened. Defacing or removing statues won't change history.
Leave them to remind us of how better we have made the world.

Behaviours need to change.

[WowLucky]

I thought Queen Victoria (or maybe Albert?) was one of the drivers behind the abolition of slavery? Although I'm sure, as almost every white well to do person of the time, she was also horribly racist in her generla attitudes.

If we're going to write off any British history tainted by racist attitudes there's not going to be much left, which is awful but we can't change that, only what comes next.

[Abraid2]

Slavery had been abolished before Victoria came to the throne.

[MockersGuidedByTheScience]

Too many blokes on horses generally. Some of them could do with coming down on grounds of taste alone.

When you're done with Churchill, consider Gandhi, who once protested that the Indians of Natal did not expect to be treated like 'blanket kaffirs.'

[cologne4711]

I'm not sure any statues around don't have some negative connotations to them. So do we do away with all of them (we don't need replacements in my view, the parks would be fine without them).

Nobody is perfect, not even national heroes. It would be very difficult find someone who isn't disliked by some proportion of the population (except Sir David Attenborough). And maybe Paul Sinton-Hewitt, who started parkrun, although I dare say there are a few entitled dog walkers who dislike him for bringing "sweaty (virus-shedding) joggers" to "their" parks.

[Moonmelodies]

Next up, Muhammad ... slave owner.

[hoxtonbabe]

@MockersGuidedByTheScience

Yes people often forget gandhi was vehemently racist against Africans.. although all this suddenly changed after the train incident, then we were “all as one” 🙄

[Colom]

Gosh you really need to get a handle on things over there.

I'm not British, in fact I'm from one such colonized country where the British empire caused murder and strife still seen to this day, but tearing down statues of past monarchs is counter intuitive and just wrong IMO. This is your history. It cannot and should not be erased.

Queen Victoria is no hero of mine but she is historically significant and her statue should stand. I would be outraged by all this thuggery if I was from the U.K. sad to see people stand by and allow such vandalism.

[zscaler]

I think 20th C Asian experiences of living under regimes like the Khmer Rouge, are not widely known, remembered, or understood by the general public. Which is unfortunate.

Perhaps you’re unaware of the Choeung Ek Genocidal Center, which is situated on the site known as the Killing Fields and which memorialises the victims of the Khmer Rouge. It’s an incredibly serious and thoughtful memorial to one of the worst atrocities in human history.

No doubt you think this is less effective than a huge statue celebrating Pol Pot, but in my view it’s recklessly irresponsible to suggest that statues dedicated to historical figures responsible for great evils, which are erected without context or acknowledgement of those evils, are the only means at our disposal for understanding our past.

[Melia100]

Actually, I am aware of it, because my cousin writes in this area.

I think suggesting that I would be in favour of statue of Pol Pol is base and nasty.

I also think Queen Victoria is not Pol Pot.

Please don't quote me again. Thank you, and have a good night.

[winewolfhowls]

I think the way forward is to reconsider what statues are FOR. They should not be for heroes as most historical figures and indeed most people, are flawed, but they should be for people who were SIGNIFICANT in some way. Then, a plaque can explain their actions, importance and other failings too. This is the best approach to really educate people about our history.