Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.

When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

Didn't your solicitor check with you that the plot registered at the Land Regustry was what you thought you were buying?

I wonder if you also have s case against the vendors. Approaching the estate agent ombudsman could be a way forward if you believe you were missold.

The neighbours were not using it on the times we viewed or the times we did a drive by to check how busy/loud it was

Facepalm. If the neighbours hadn't been in their front garden at the time you drove by, would you have assumed you owned that too?

How could she have a claim against the vendors? You can't sell something you don't own. It should have been made clear by the solicitor exactly what was involved in the sale.
Possibly it was?

I think you have recourse if you were sold 1.5 acres of land and only have 1 acre - you need to speak with your solicitor and agree regarding the gate but am also not a legal mind.

Op, the land registry shows no one owns it. Your deeds show you don’t own it.

Whoever gets to ten years first can claim it, if they meet the land registry criteria.

It may be the land is owned, and they could purchase it though. I’d say the maintenance they are doing means they are going for adverse possession.

Sorry how long have they lived there?

Approaching the estate agent ombudsman could be a way forward if you believe you were missold

I bet you a meadow that the EA's particulars for the property will have a disclaimer, saying that they are just going on what the vendors have told them. It's not the EA's job to check that the vendors are telling the truth - it's your solicitor's job.

I bet you a meadow that the EA's particulars for the property will have a disclaimer

Agree.

Op when you say your garden is an acre and a bit, how much of a bit? Do you know the exact size of it?

You will have been asked to sign / initial a plan of the land and house which will have formed part of the TR1 which is the deed of transfer of the property. If this did not include the meadow then you have not bought it. It is as simple as that. You need to review all of the paperwork forming part of the transaction from the particulars to the emails from the conveyancer tomorrow and try to identify when this got missed. You then need to call your solicitor tomorrow and outline the issue to them. If it is their mistake then their professional indemnity policy will cover it, but that won’t actually help you “get” the meadow. If it is unregistered then the previous owner may be able to apply for possessory title of the land if they can prove adverse possession for 12 years, although the fact that your new neighbours seem to use it and take care of it suggests that this is unlikely. I’m slightly staggered that you didn’t ascertain the actual extent of the property you were buying. What happened on the viewing(s)? What lead you to believe that the meadow formed part of the property?

Hmmm, it sounds to me like no-one owns it to be honest. But certainly if your title deeds don't show the meadow as included (and nor do your neighbours) then this could get messy and expensive, so consider how much you want to fight for this.

So many neighbour disputes lately. I bet this could be an on going saga.

Sounds like you have been naive and also used incompetant solicitors coupled with liars for vendors and EAs. All rather odd.

the previous owner may be able to apply for possessory title of the land if they can prove adverse possession for 12 years, although the fact that your new neighbours seem to use it and take care of it suggests that's unlikely
You need to prove exclusive use, so that's a no go.

Go over the paperwork you received from your solicitor very carefully, read the contract of sale. Did you ask your solicitor about the meadow? Did they tell you whether it was included? There's a chance you were misadvised. However, your comments about things being rushed etc might hint that you didn't actually check about the meadow, and therefore your solicitor didn't advise you because they didn't know to advise you on this. They don't necessarily pore over the EA sales particulars.

So the land registry map shows the meadow

I repeat: index map search.

The indemnity insurance should have a plan of the property attached to it to show which land is covered by the indemnity.

Also, if there's a gate from the meadow on to your property then unless it's very new the NDN can't claim to have uninterrupted use of the land which I believe is a requirement of adverse possession.

Do you have anything in writing to show the vendor's led you to believe they owned the meadow or a paper trail to show you raised this with your solicitor?

Unfortunately there is unlikely to be recourse against the solicitor acting for the Buyer. In the ordinary course, the solicitor will send the client a copy of the Title Plan for the property and ask the client to carefully check that the property outlined in red on the title plan matches what the client thinks they are buying. The solicitor has not viewed the property - they cannot confirm that the Title Plan is what the buyer expects the property to include.

As other posters have said, if the land isn't on the Title Plan, you have not purchased it, even if it was owned by the Seller.

It's also difficult to see how you might have recourse against any other party. You saw the Title Plan setting out the property you were buying and went ahead with the purchase. It's hard to say there has been any fraud or misrepresentation when you have literally been presented with a Title Plan clearly setting out what is being purchased.

Well it pretty much sounds like we don't own it.

Although i'm pretty sure the neighbours don't either. They have lived here over 15 years though so I guess we're fucked.

There's no way to find really old property lines then? Not in the local council archives or anything?

I found a bit of land like this on a job we wewre doing once it seems as if no one had ever owned or claimed it! Dunno what happemed to it in the end.

It might be an idea of ask the land registery if you haven't done so they might be able to advise you, also have a word with the council planning dept to see if its in or out of any devlopment policies for the area they sometimes have odd bits of histroy re land here and there.

How big is this meddow anyway?..

@Happy20

Well it pretty much sounds like we don't own it.

Although i'm pretty sure the neighbours don't either. They have lived here over 15 years though so I guess we're fucked.

There's no way to find really old property lines then? Not in the local council archives or anything?

It doesn't matter. You haven't bought it, it wasn't part of the sale.

Are you able to ask the vendors to clarify?

There's no way to find really old property lines then? Not in the local council archives or anything?

Ask them t most are quite helpfull. One thing comes to mind if the previuos ownber had bene tending it the they may have had a claim see if thats transferable?.

It's clear you don't own it and the vendors were pulling a fast one. If neither you or your neighbours own it I wouldn't go any further with your "claims". Is it really worth apocolyptically falling out with your neighbours, when they were there first and have been looking after and tending to the land all this time?

I don’t understand why you are asking on social media rather than having a proper conversation with your solicitor who has access to all the documents?

Having said that - I’m sorry this has happened to you, it must be hugely frustrating. Could it be common land?

My husband‘s a property solicitor and there are a few things to think about. First thing he says is do not talk to the neighbours anymore unless your solicitor tells you to as you may invalidate your insurance. You need to ask what specific enquiries your solicitor made about this land and whether the seller’s were required make any statutory declarations. When we bought our house and a piece of land was not on the deeds we made the seller’s register the land first under adverse possession.

We spoke to the solicitor over the phone about the meadow. We didn't have anything in writing as when the solicitor spoke to the other sellers (I'm not sure if they spoke to their agents/solicitor/sellers themselves) they started pushing for completion and getting annoyed we were asking questions. They made it seem like it wasn't the done thing and we were being overly difficult. We did have a few issues we wanted clearing up and the major things were sorted but the meadow just sort of got ignored by everyone and at that point I just felt like I was being difficult.