Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.


When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

[WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo]

I’d bet this dispute predates you, and ndn have decided to use your move to make their move. But sounds like in order to make an adverse possession claim you need to prove exclusive use. Which they don’t have, the sellers obviously used the land too & you do (intend) to as well. And I wonder who owned the sheep that were on the meadow when the OP visited.

Perhaps a frank & friendly conversation with neighbour... the land isn’t registered, sellers used it, we are using it, and we’d like to keep the situation as it is.

And that prevents the land from potentially being built on.

[WinterIsGone]

You could look at the electoral register to find out who was living there previously, but I'm not sure that would help you.

[DC3dilemma]

I had a similar issue with a house. Bought it knowing that the last 10 metres of the garden actually originally belonged to a neighbour (or at least the farmland that was allocated to their property when the land was first sold for housing).

The neighbour and one of the previous owners of my home had agreed it more conveniently belonged to my property, but rather than spend money changing deeds etc. they agreed that it would become part of my property through some sort of common usage.

So the deeds I got outlined a small area with the to-be-added area marked in red, and I was also informed of the year when it would officially be mine...in the meantime I was instructed to continue to use it, tend to it, keep it within the boundaries of my garden fence etc as it would only become mine uncontested if it remained in my use.

Which is a long way of saying, I think this land will belong to whoever has been using and caring for it...but you might have a case against the sellers if they inferred it was regularly in their use rather than the neighbours as this would be a significant lie with repercussions for ownership.

[vintagemoo]

Check your contract for sale (verbal description of land) and plan, don't just rely on the Land Reg entry and map. Mistakes sometimes happen.

You potentially have a claim against your solicitors if you can show that they should reasonably have known of your expectation that the meadow was included in the sale. Check emails and any contemporaneous notes. Any correspondence between the sellers and them that you have sight of. Check the particulars of sale and any marketing material. Ask your solicitors for a copy of the plan that they used to run searches (in case it covered the meadow, although doubtful).

Check your solicitors' client care letter and raise a complaint by email in accordance with the details given. Usually they will have someone investigate the file. If necessary and you feel you have evidence you can move to the Legal Ombudsman if the internal finding is unsatisfactory.

You may receive financial compensation from them for the balls up (they have professional indemnity insurance for just such a thing).

It sounds like you do not own the land (subject to a check of the Contract). However, if the sellers do come across the old deeds and establish that they do own it, you could ask them to transfer the meadow to you (subject to any claim of adverse possession that your neighbours might have). Ask your solicitors to run some searches against the meadow and see if they can find anything that indicates ownership.

Lastly, if the sellers can provide you with evidence of their using the meadow, this can be used to interrupt a claim by your neighbours for adverse possession. I would get any evidence they have and keep it on file.

[Sally872]

My understanding is that you have bought what it says on your title deeds regardless of who owned the land at any other point in history.

The only thing you may be able to do is prove the couple or estate agent lied you and/or your solicitor was useless. I am not sure if/how you will get money back on purchase though.

Apologise to neighbours, smooth things over and you might be able to get some reassurance they aren't planning to build on it.

Lesson learned I suppose. Sellers have really been misleading, sorry you have been conned. Glad you like the house anyway.

[Happy20]

Thisismytimetoshine

Oh, get a grip, op, please. I've used my local park for 20 years, it still belongs to the council.

Who pissed on your chips?

[GanjaGranny]

I do think the daily for this lies with the solicitor

Maybe start with a complaint

[Muppetry76]

What was said about the land on the valuation OP? They usually give a brief description about the general locale plus anything noteworthy. Like... erm... a meadow....

If the land was included in the valuation but actually isn't part of the transaction your mortgage lender might have something to say.

[StCharlotte]

But you can find out who does own it now though:

(1) www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-index-map

It will tell you the title number. Followed by:

(2) Obtaining office copies if the register which will show who does own it.

www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register

[NoMoreDickheads]

You let yourself be chivvied into something without checking it all out.

I wouldn't say you were an idiot- you just haven't sorted something out yet/messed up.

I'm glad you like the house anyway.

Please keep us updated if you find anything more out, or come to some arrangement with the neighbours.

[vintagemoo]

Sorry - to add to the above the solicitors investigation will listen to phone calls if recorded and also check any notes of phone calls that the solicitor/paralegal should have taken. If you are sure that you mentioned 'meadow' in anything then hopefully this will be fruitful.

Apologies that the above is a bit garbled. Long day.

[Boulshired]

Ok the previous owners have been shit but at least you have some form of evidence that disproves exclusive use. What you do next depends on the amount of money you are willing to spend, and who you think your battle is with and is in winnable.

[Bluntness100]

The issue here is the neighbour is saying the opposite to the sellers. She’s saying it’s her land and she’s maintained it. As such, if she goes for adverse possession the op won’t know till it’s done as she is not someone to be notified or who can put in an objection.

All the op will see is the land registry updated.

[jasjas1973]

Well, that should stop the NDN s from claiming possession quite so easily, as they were not using it for their own & sole use.
You need to investigate local solicitors and what was sold to whom and when.

[SoupDragon]

DH has emailed the old owners and they have sent a short email back. They have said that they ' have been using the meadow for nearly 20 years'

So, you have it in writing from the previous owners that the neighbours have not had exclusive use of the land for the required amount of time.

[vintagemoo]

@StCharlotte The meadow is unregistered, however the solicitor can undertake local authority searches.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

@Boulshired

Ok the previous owners have been shit but at least you have some form of evidence that disproves exclusive use. What you do next depends on the amount of money you are willing to spend, and who you think your battle is with and is in winnable.

What evidence? They're proven liars who tried to sell land they didn't own.

[MinecraftMother]

Your solicitor hasn't done a very good job at explaining this to you.

When they reported to you with the contract for signing, they will have sent you a plan. They will have told you in writing to look at that plan and ensure that the position on the ground - as you understand it - is reflected fully in the plan.

If you didn't raise any objections to the missing meadow at that point, then your sol would never know about it.

It sounds to me like this was a sale of an unregistered property and the land registry will be registering it. It'll take ages. Esp now.

Go onto land registry website.'find the free map search facility and put your postcode in. Have a poke around. If the field is registered then download a copy of the register and see who is down as Owner. If it isn't, then you are likely shit out of luck.

If your sol knew about the field then I'd be asking the hard questions of her...it was her job to ensure it was included within the extent of the demise (that means the boundaries, fully, of the property you bought).

The indemnity probably won't help you here...

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. I am almost tempted to ask you to give me the details so I can investigate tomorrow myself...but I've been burnt on MN before so I won't 😉

Good luck! Let me know if you need any help x

[Bluntness100]

It’s not evidence unless the previous owners back it up and they clearly aren’t willing to do so, they also lied through their teeth and said it was theirs and now the ops. So not exactly trustworthy.

[Boulshired]

Adverse possession is much more difficult than it once was. The neighbours also have a burden of proof.

[elkiedee]

I'm not a solicitor but I used to work as a secretary in the property team of a council legal department, and I find it quite weird that your solicitor just told you that the other side had got ratty and threatened to pull out if you didn't complete. Your solicitor should have either insisted on more information being provided or at least advised you and said, look, there's an issue here you should be aware of, and it looks like they're not telling the truth about that adjoining land.

[Bluntness100]

It sounds to me like this was a sale of an unregistered property and the land registry will be registering it

There is no sale. of anything. It’s not on her deeds. Or mentioned on any paperwork, they didn’t even confirm they owned it prior to proceeding and it’s Unregistered, she’s already checked,

[MinecraftMother]

Ps applications for adverse possession hve to be supported with statements of truth or statutory declarations from current owners, and previous owners if any, all adding up to 12 years' occupation at least and without a break.

But the land has to have been closed off.

If I were you, I would ask the sellers if they would be so kind as to swear a stat Dec or ST5 NOW to allow you to claim AP, not your neighbours.

Your solicitor (who should be ashamed of themselves if what you've said is true - please tell me their name!) should gladly draft the wording for free. It is simple. You send it to the vendors and they take it to another solicitor who will do the swear (if using a stat Dec) and that costs £7 all in. A statement of truth is just as acceptable these days and costs nothing.

Your solicitor should then offer to get this application into land reg, gratis, PDQ...

[MinecraftMother]

Sorry, missed the bit where neighbours access land too...doesn't look like either of you can claim the right to apply for AP. You should continue to maintain it too though,
Perhaps get your sol to try and get a caution on it so that if/when the neighbours try to claim it for themselves you'll be warned...

[maddening]

Does the meadow.have any access to a highway other than your drive where the gate is?