Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.


When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

[GeishaInCroatia]

Could you please clarify: do the NDN have to go on your land to get into the meadow? Is that what they are doing?

[janet1267]

OP, you said yourself that the meadow isn't on your paperwork. You haven't bought it. It isn't yours, regardless of what the previous owners may have said.

[WatchingTVagain]

I'd be careful of assuming the land registry is correct. Or new neighbour came knocking not long after moving in to show us what they had bought which included part of our garden (been here for 25 years and was fenced off/ established etc - we hadn't done a land grab as soon as ex-neighbour's moved out). Luckily I had the original site layout plan showing it wasn't part of their title but still not sure why they didn't pick up on it before they bought it when the solicitor asks you to confirm the boundary of what you think you're buying

[Mildred007]

As the vendors didn't explicitly say they owned the land in their email and aren't willing to fall out with the neighbours over it by confirming this, it makes it sound very much like they have no idea who owns it either to be honest.

[Bunnyfuller]

I would say them claiming they don’t wish to fall out with the NDN means they know they told porkies and are trying to brush you off, again. Get a solicitor to write to them and force them to declare.

[angelfacecuti75]

I'm sure this thread has been posted before...

[Mirinska]

If the seller claimed they owned it but there’s no written proof they need to back up this by supporting you in an adverse possession case. As part of a purchase my sellers swore an affidavit that the land in front of the house had always been used by them exclusively as a parking space. It has to be more than a certain number of years. It may be worth looking into using their right to adverse possession being assigned to you but I don’t know if it’s too late with the sale having gone though. If the seller said they owned it in their legal submission (property information form or other info communicated between solicitors) then you may have a claim against them. You could also thwart an attempt by the neighbour to make an adverse possession claim by contesting that they have demonstrated exclusive ownership. You would need to use the meadow and demonstrate that the gate allows you access. They don’t have exclusive access unless they can show how that’s enforced. Can you talk to other neighbours to try and ascertain the truth. You can also pay small sums to get access to Land Registry archived written records going back to the build date of the property and cross reference them with electoral rolls and census data to get owners names and rough dates to identify land registry search parameters. It may take several requests. Look on the !and Registry website. And libraries may have historical plans of neighbourhood from which you can trace land use and ownership in respect of the meadow.

[Mumsn0t]

In law, if someone maintains a bit of land for I think it's something like 7 years, if no one contests that the person has maintained that land, said land is then theirs. You would need to get proof from the previous owners of how long they had maintained it for, how often, if anyone else did (i.e. the neighbours) and find out what made them think it was theirs if the deeds had been lost. There must be a copy somewhere like at the Land Registry? They sound like chancers with £ signs in their eyes!

[Pr1mr0se]

Have a look at historical maps but this is really one for your solicitors to sort out to get a definitive answer on ownership. If no-one officially owns it then it can't be bought by anyone. If there is only one gate that leads onto your land then that could be used as evidence that it is actually part of your plot. Really something that should have been sorted out before exchanging contracts but easily missed in all the activities / stress of a house move. Hope you get a answer on this one without permanently falling out with the neighbours.

[Thisismytimetoshine]

Really something that should have been sorted out before exchanging contracts but easily missed in all the activities / stress of a house move.
Sorry, but I'm gobsmacked at this Easy to have avoided reading the paperwork connected to the contract in the stress of packing your suitcases??
Do you know the meaning of the word "priorities"?

[MinecraftMother]

[quote DogBowlSpaghetti]@MinecraftMother

I am a property solicitor too and the property advice on these pages incenses me![/quote]
Dude, don't even go there!! There's one above that mentions 7 years...

Google has a lot to answer for!! Also, i know now a little of how my doctor feels haha.

How are you doing? Busy? I am, literally, on the phone to Barclays - listening to their awful hold music. I swear I'm this close to just driving to Liverpool to sort this out with them face to face. They've been awful throughout - my client is a diamond though and never takes the delays out on me. For that, I remain grateful...

[thebillmoon]

Firstly, you are not complete idiots.
A little bit naïve maybe.
Your solicitor had insisted you take out an 'indemnity' in case there was a problem in the future and this is it!
Your surveyor (always pay top dollar for one) should have surveyed the property including the land.
This could then have been compared against the land registry.
The solicitor should have checked with the land registry as to what is registered as land that is yours.
!! If your property is not registered with land registry, make sure it is now.
The solicitor should have done this and told you that the meadow could be a problem.
Ask your solicitor to check what is shown on the land registry.
What ever you do, do not go to court about it. You could win (the battle) be in the right and lose (the war) your house in legal costs.
Both of you need to go to your neighbours and talk about this over a cup of tea.
Tell them that this is not going to court or anything, but this needs sorting out by both parties in case either of you wants to sell in the future. repeat that bit. They may well want to downsize at some later date.
It makes it harder to sell a property that is in dispute.
You should not have listened to the seller.
If it's his land it would show on the deeds (not available) or the land registry.
The land registry should show if it is their land.
If it doesn't, then that is where the problems lies.
DO NOT GO TO COURT.
There may be 'a case to answer' as the solicitors call it, but still don't do it.
Say to your neighbours that you do not want to fall out with them, especially as you have only been in the house two minutes and do they have any ideas on how to resolve this?
Best of luck.

[Mildura]

The solicitor in the office next door to mine has a mug with:

"Do not confuse your Google search with my law degree"

written on it!!

[MinnieMountain]

@thebillmoon the indemnity policy covers the lack of deeds for the house and garden, not the meadow.

OP you've had some good advice here from those who actually know what they're talking about. If you need any more advice (unlikely), post in Legal.

[Daisydoesnt]

We did have a few issues we wanted clearing up and the major things were sorted but the meadow just sort of got ignored by everyone and at that point I just felt like I was being difficult.

from page 4 of this thread.

I might be wrong, but it sounds to me that it all got very fraught nearing completion (when doesn't it!) and the OP decided that the meadow issue would probably be OK, so let's just go ahead and exchange. Bad decision.

I know when we bought our house (which has got a large, odd shaped garden with access on two sides) we spent ages checking and re-checking that what we thought we were buying actually tallied with the documents. I can't imagine being in the OPs situation and just taking a punt because you felt that otherwise you were being difficult!!

[Mirinska]

Unfortunately some solicitors delegate conveyancing to trainees and junior staff and are too busy to supervise the work. There in lies the source of many errors and oversights.

It makes sense to do your own research so you know what questions to ask a solicitor and if something they send seems wrong or they fail to send you something you know should exist you are informed enough to deal with it.

I and others I know have had serious errors on important paperwork or paperwork not passed on till after deadlines etc. a friends divorce was so badly handled that it went through, despite an agreement on assets at the time, without a property settlement signed by both parties and 10 years later they lost their house.

Law degrees notwithstanding ...Just saying...

[thebillmoon]

You are right. Sorry.

[DogBowlSpaghetti]

@MinnieMountain I do commercial now, so no sitting on hold to Barclays. I do the odd resi for friends and family, enough to warrant keeping my CQS accreditation, but a very small proportion of my caseload. It’s definitely a different kind of stress.

[Cantbelievethiss]

I can’t fathom buying a house that I thought had land when that land isn’t on the dress.

[Cantbelievethiss]

Deeds rather ha

[MinnieMountain]

@DogBowlSpaghetti I think you meant to name check @MinecraftMother. I'm still furloughed unfortunately. I'd LOVE to be on hold to Barclays for hours right now.

[DogBowlSpaghetti]

Sorry

[CharteredBeanCounter]

@Mildura

The solicitor in the office next door to mine has a mug with:

"Do not confuse your Google search with my law degree"

written on it!!

I love that! I may try and get a similar one!
In my job it is google, the man down the pub or Martin Lewis!

[Hingeandbracket]

@thebillmoon

Firstly, you are not complete idiots.
A little bit naïve maybe.
Your solicitor had insisted you take out an 'indemnity' in case there was a problem in the future and this is it!
Your surveyor (always pay top dollar for one) should have surveyed the property including the land.
This could then have been compared against the land registry.
The solicitor should have checked with the land registry as to what is registered as land that is yours.
!! If your property is not registered with land registry, make sure it is now.
The solicitor should have done this and told you that the meadow could be a problem.
Ask your solicitor to check what is shown on the land registry.
What ever you do, do not go to court about it. You could win (the battle) be in the right and lose (the war) your house in legal costs.
Both of you need to go to your neighbours and talk about this over a cup of tea.
Tell them that this is not going to court or anything, but this needs sorting out by both parties in case either of you wants to sell in the future. repeat that bit. They may well want to downsize at some later date.
It makes it harder to sell a property that is in dispute.
You should not have listened to the seller.
If it's his land it would show on the deeds (not available) or the land registry.
The land registry should show if it is their land.
If it doesn't, then that is where the problems lies.
DO NOT GO TO COURT.
There may be 'a case to answer' as the solicitors call it, but still don't do it.
Say to your neighbours that you do not want to fall out with them, especially as you have only been in the house two minutes and do they have any ideas on how to resolve this?
Best of luck.

Every single bit of advice in this post is utter junk - why do people post so much detail on stuff they clearly know absolutely zero about? It's just weird.

[Hingeandbracket]

@Mildura

The solicitor in the office next door to mine has a mug with:

"Do not confuse your Google search with my law degree"

written on it!!

I didn't need a Google search to know that the conveyancing solicitor sent the entire proceeds of our divorce instigated house sale to me instead of a 50/50 split as clearly instructed. When I called to query the much larger than expected deposit I was assured I didn't know what I was talking about and everything was correct. Cue angry ex - and them having to back down, apologise and compensate ex.