Are we complete idiots?

[Happy20]

We have an ongoing issue with a boundary which isn't as easily answered as you would think! Basically the neighbors think a piece of land is there's when we are pretty sure it's ours.


When we brought our house the sellers said a meadow at the bottom of our drive was theirs, they mowed it and used it, even had a couple sheep on it once.
We moved in, all fine and dandy until the next weekend when neighbour is out there mowing the meadow. Very kind of him we think because obviously he is being neighbourly what with us having only just moved in. We think we've struck it rich with such lovely, thoughtful neighbours. Wife of neighbour comes round the next day with a welcome card and has a nice superficial chat. We thank her profusely for mowing our meadow and offer to help them out if they ever need a hand, well you can probably see where this is going. Neighbour tells us it's their meadow and there must have been a mix up. We explain what the old owners told us and she claims they ' must have been talking about another bit of land as it has always been theirs'. After much awkwardness and many protesting about how old neighbours must have pulled a fast one (without actually saying they have pulled a fast one) we leave it at we will talk to our solicitor and her being nice but increasingly frosty. I think she honestly thought we would just say it's fine and not bother with taking it any further. She seemed very out out that we would be talking to the solicitor and old owners solicitor.

Now is the massive issue!

Our house is very old, the deeds were lost a long time ago. We have insurance to cover the lack of deeds (can't remember what it's called but our solicitor insisted we needed this) and can see up to date deeds from our sale with the old owners, but cannot find anything further back than that.

So YABU - leave the neighbors to it. You brought a house with no deeds just hope they don't want to build on it.
YANBU - it's clearly your land and the are trying to pull a fast one.

We are waiting on a call back from our solicitor but in the meantime does anyone have any ideas where we might find really old, long list deeds? I would be forever grateful!!

[HannahBanana87]

What happened to the sheep?

[MrsNoah2020]

Sounds like you have been naive and also used incompetant solicitors coupled with liars for vendors and EAs

The vendors were lying to the OP, but there will be no proof. They will say that the title plan was correct, so they haven't formally offered for sale any property that they didn't actually own.

There is no evidence that the solicitors or EA have done anything wrong.

[AwwDontGo]

.

[Happy20]

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?

[justanotherneighinparadise]

Your main objective seems to be to make sure it’s not built on so you need to do some detective work. I found this link for you but I’m sure there’s a huge amount of info on unregistered land in England. I don’t suppose it’s got any rare natural habitat on it you could register. A huge oak tree, some newts? 😬

hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/05/search-owner-unregistered-land/

[TheShoesa]

I live on a farm. Some of the houses that back onto one of the fields have gates in their fences onto the field (which is private property), they dump garden rubbish or walk on the margin which they shouldn't. DH saw someone walking their dog not on a public footpath and pointed out it was private land that he had no right to be on. Dog walker said 'But the people we bought our house from said it was okay for us to walk anywhere on the farm! And how are we meant to get to the public footpath if we don't cross your land?' Er, you walk out of the front of your house and down the road like the people who DON'T back onto it!

So unfortunately I think your seller has told you a lie to make their house seem more attractive / better value than it was. Sorry OP, I hope you manage to resolve it amicably with your neighbours.

[Bluntness100]

It looks in hindsight op they wanted you to not ask because they knew they didn’t own it. And your deeds show you don’t either.

The land registry will stand.

If they’ve been there fifteen years and our now maintaining it and you’ve pushed it with them. I’d assume they are applying for adverse possession as we speak. They’d have to be idiots not to.

It doesn’t mean they wish to build on it though, but with the previous owners of your house moving out it seems they now have a free crack at it.

I would speak to a solicitor, thr land may be available for purchase if it has an owner, which it may do, even if unregistered, which is one way to fight it.

[powkin]

We ended up in a sort of similar situation where we were sold our house as having this big garden, but in fact part of our garden didn't actually belong to us. The previous owners claimed to not know/feined ignorance but clearly they did but we were desperate to move so just had to get on with it. In reality the extra land belonged to the council who had offered it for sale back in the 80's but an old owner declined to pay but still subsumed it into their own plot (it would have just been an inaccessible patch of wasteland otherwise).

Long story short I've just applied for adverse possession, but sadly your neighbours would have a much better claim for it if they've lived there a long time, they are the ones currently maintaining it and it is adjoining their land. Luckily mine is much more straight forward as I know the council own it and the land is now inaccessible to anyone else (other than through our house).

If it isn't on the land registry documents, you don't own it. Sorry the previous owners made you believe you did though.

[FATEdestiny]

This may be a silly question- but if rights to unclaimed land comes down to who maintains it - what happens if the OP also starts moving it weekly? Maybe planting some fruit trees or buying a donkey and fensing it off?

[WinterIsGone]

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?
Not if it isn't on the map when you buy it. The owner could have sold the land in the meantime.

[user1487194234]

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?
Not really no
You own what you bought and got title for
Lots of properties used to be bigger
Don't speak to your neighbours
Ask for a meeting with your solicitor

[WT422]

@Happy20

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?

No, it doesn't work like that. You own the land on your Title Plan. That is definitive. Parcels of land are split and merged all the time - it is irrelevant if at some point in history the house plot and meadow plot had the same owner/formed part of the same plot.

[user1487194234]

Lovesick

[jasjas1973]

If it were me, i'd try and find the solicitors who dealt with earlier sales, even if they no longer exist, smaller solicitors will transfer all their paper work to whoever takes them over when they retire or sell up.

We always "owned" a parcel of land but when my Mum died, i found we didn't it own it legally, it just got forgotten and was never added to the deeds but there were bills of sale in the vaults of a long ceased firm of solicitors.
Using these and a decent local solicitor, the LR added the land to the deeds of the family house.
Doing my own leg work, we got it all done for about £800.

[Bluntness100]

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?

Well no, because it could have been sold or gifted etc to someone else. The fact someone once owned it doesn’t mean it’s attached to that property for ever.

[Boulshired]

If you do not have ownership it might be in your best interest to look at it remaining unclaimed. Especially if this means devaluation of your property if they get planning permission. I would not be surprised if the mowing was deliberate for a future claim that the new the would not be able to do with the previous owners. You have a gate, it backs onto your land and they also do not have ownership.

[SynchroSwimmer]

Can you speak discreetly to some other older longstanding residents of the area - that’s usually a good way of getting a bit of old historic information.

Can you borrow a few sheep from a farmer to bring in to graze it....just to “establish” yourselves in the space?
(a tactic I adopt myself sometimes)

[MrsNoah2020]

Why I'm asking about the past deeds is if they showed that once upon a time the meadow belonged to this house then that sorts it all surely?

Er no. The title plan tells you what you have bought. Old deeds will make no difference. Even if the previous owners of your house had owned the meadow for 1000 years, you haven't bought it if it's not on the title plan.

It's like if you bought a car that the previous owner had used to pull a caravan. If your contract only says you have bought the car, then you don't own the caravan, even if the previous owner always used the two together.

[user1471464702]

Great advice from solicitor - thinking aloud here - if gate opens onto your drive then the pathway to this land means neighbours have to cross your land to access it ?

Pressure to buy quickly makes me think they wanted you to presume the land was yours and adverse possession possible by neighbours if using it etc as people have already said - can a surveyor check acreage stands at 1.5 or 1.0 as this might be the answer if sold at having 1.5

Solicitor should have sorted this on your behalf as your legal advocate

[YinMnBlue]

Is it really worth apocolyptically falling out with your neighbours, when they were there first and have been looking after and tending to the land all this time

Well, it sounds as if the previous owners of the OP’s house were also using the land, so the neighbours cannot claim adverse possession. If the OP is concerned that the neighbours might build on the land it is very much in their interests to keep using and maintaining the land alongside the neighbours!

[Bluntness100]

The gate is not relevant. I have a gate that backs from my garden to fields. Doesn’t mean I have a right to the fields. Anyone can put a gate on their property. You don’t then get to say look it’s now mine because I have access. Not if you’re new there.

My home also sits in three acres. It was once part of an estate that was eleven acres. Simply because someone owned the eleven acres once doesn’t mean I’m entitled to it now. That’s simply not how it works.

[MrsRochester12]

Do you have a mortgage? Sorry if that’s too personal but if you do does the mortgage company know the land is not included?

[Cleanerconundrum]

If you don’t mind who owns it but you just want it built on can you register it as common land? My grandparents did this to some land next to their house to stop it being built on.

I know there were a lot of hoops but it was very close to the common where they live and it was popular locally as it meant loads of people can use it. It wasnt “owned” by them at the time.

[Cleanerconundrum]

Woop don’t want it built on! Obs

[MrsNoah2020]

Well, it sounds as if the previous owners of the OP’s house were also using the land, so the neighbours cannot claim adverse possession. If the OP is concerned that the neighbours might build on the land it is very much in their interests to keep using and maintaining the land alongside the neighbours!

It would be useful to get proof that the previous owners did use the land. So ask your solicitor to approach them very sensitively, OP. Definitely do not suggest they were lying. Photos of them using the meadow would be very helpful, as would any other documentation - did they invite people to a party in it, for example? You are looking to prove that it wasn't; exclusively used by your neighbours.