Family row scheduled for this afternoon - help me prepare myself

[Oakmaiden]

This is not the way I would prefer to deal with this, but unfortunately my husband scheduled a family row (aka "We will discuss this tomorrow") with my teenage daughter. I need help to work out what we hope to achieve and what is reasonable to expect. Please.

The background: I am trying to keep this as brief as possible. DD is 16 and is currently (was, before everything shut down) being assessed for Autism. She also suffers from sometimes very bad depression and very high levels of anxiety. She is very bright (was hoping for straight A's for GCSEs, but with all that is going on, who can tell...) but her passion has always been for performing - she normally spends around 20 hours a week on top of her school week dancing/acting/singing etc.

Lockdown obviously changed her life dramatically. As well as an abrupt end to her schooling and the cancellation of several performances she had been working hard toward, her "extra curricula" life changed. Her dance, drama and singing lessons all went on line, so she could have continued them as normal, but she finds the online format very difficult, and says that she no longer feel as though she is being taught and corrected, merely given activities to do. She has stopped singing and drama completely, and goes to maybe 3 or 4 dance classes a week. At most. The rest of the time - she plays on the computer or sleeps.

And this is the source of most of the conflict - she plays a game with people in the States, so goes to bed at about 4am and gets up early afternoon. Yesterday we didn't see her until 6pm. She hasn't been outside since the week before lockdown (she was isolating the week before as she had mumps) except occasionally in the garden. Her contribution to the household is to cook one meal a week and wash up once a week (these are her official "tasks") which I don't think is very much, but she thinks is hugely unreasonable. Yesterday it was her turn to cook, and she decided to make macaroni cheese (which my husband can't eat as cooked cheese makes him ill) and refused to heat up a jar of ready made sauce alongside it for her father so he could eat.

And EVERYTHING we say to her she has a comeback for.

I want her to live more "UK centric" and sociable hours, to become more involved in preparing for her future and to help out a bit more. To lead a more normal life. She says she can't see what difference it makes to us, and we should leave her to do what makes her happy. DH wants to confiscate her computer.

Am I being unreasonable to want to make changes (I am willing to compromise, and in honesty her happiness IS very important to me) or should we just leave her to get on with it.

I honestly don’t know whether your list of expectations is reasonable as I’m struggling a bit in different ways with both ds and dd.

Dd is year 11 like yours but very independent. She generally gets up in the morning and occupies herself all day, eats with us, washes up, is pleasant and will watch TV/play games etc. On the whole not too much of a worry but she doesn’t cook for us or do much other then washing up so now I’m worrying if I’m being too soft! But then I think about everything they’re missing out on and I don’t want constant battles.

Ds is year 9 and starting to game later and later into the early hours. We’ve had on off battles over lockdown about this. He’s got school work to do but to be fair to him he does it all, just not in the morning. Does that matter? I’m not sure in these circumstances! It’s not as if he has anything to get up for in the morning!

He’s happy gaming with his friends so that’s a positive but he hardly ever leaves the house. I’m trying to get him to go for a walk with a friend. He also hates watching stuff with us or being around us much - but then I think that’s probably a phase as dd was similar at his age.

These are such strange times so I’m not sure normal rules apply. Sorry if that’s not very helpful!

Also, I agree that often going nocturnal is a good way of carving out "me time". It can be very claustrophobic being in lockdown with your family. Maybe she just wants a bit of space and time to herself.

Sorry, haven’t read the whole thread.
My dd is the same age with a ASD diagnosis, she’s not allowed online all night, she’s also not allowed to stay in her room all day, I wake her up at 8am and she’s not allowed in her room until after 6pm, I have done this because if I allow her she will stay in her room all day glued to tech and doesn’t exercise, today I dragged her out for a walk.

As for cooking, my dd doesn’t cook, she’s pretty lazy unless I give her individual instructions to do things and I often find it’s just easier to do things myself.

Lockdown has been difficult especially due to the unknown about exams, dd was also aiming for level 8/9’s, all we can do is hope she gets the grades she deserves.

Motivating her during lockdown has been hard but I found setting a few basic rules has helped.

I agree with 3cats too. Ds has said he’s fed up with being with the same 3 people and he’s definitely trying to avoid us. Fair enough, he’s a teenage boy, he should be spending time with his mates. He’s also said he’s not able to be as loud at home as he is at school! (Hopefully not in lessons!)

So I think we do need to give them space even though it feels like we should be having lots of family time.

Does that sound reasonable?

No, it sounds unrealistic and unkind, but I can see that OP has heard what she wanted to hear; those posters telling her DD is lazy and ungrateful and needs a good talking to.

No, it sounds unrealistic and unkind, but I can see that OP has heard what she wanted to hear; those posters telling her DD is lazy and ungrateful and needs a good talking to.
^^
This.
This post really should be moved to sn threads. Yes she may not have a diagnosis yet, but if it's the process there are concerns about her. Therefore you need a much different approach to the situation than how you'd approach a NT child. Therefore at least 50% of this advice could make things worse in the house.

I feel like OP knows what she should do and the right way to approach this but her DH opposes it. And as OP has a difficult time with conflict, she’s worried about how to negotiate this.

OP your biggest responsibility in this is to your daughter. Not your husband and what he wants.

She doesn’t need to stay up till 4am to talk to friends in the US. DH works for a Canadian company, currently working on a joint project with a west coast company. He starts work at 2pm (9am on the east coast) and works through to 10pm (5pm east coast, 2pm west coast).

Your DD could stay up till midnight and still have plenty of time to chat to all of her friends. If she really wants to hang out with people gaming into the night on the west coast, maybe she could try getting up at 4am and gaming until 8am? Then she’d Have the whole day free to do schoolwork, exercise and cook dinner.

I’ve worked enough night shifts to know how badly they wreck your mental health/stress levels. Getting enough sleep, and getting out of the house for exercise during daylight hours, will make a massive difference to how she feels. Of course persuading her of that won’t be easy.

I'm not going to giveyou loads of advice as you've had lots but I have had to put things in place that might help.

1. Singing lessons timelag. The Associated Board do CDs of backing tracks for their exam pieces (I have a violist so singing may not be the same.) You could ask her teacher if she could learn some songs from an appropriate grade syllabus - they do musical theatre in the singing syllabus. Then she could sing along to the backing the track and there won't be issues with the time delay. It might also help with A level music as the pieces then have an automatic grade level attached. It has worked well for DDs viola.

1. Cooking - I have asked DC to research new recipes online to add to their repertoire (BBC food is a good starting point) so that when they head off to university they will have a number of simple cheap recipes in a digital recipe folder on their laptops. Might give your DD some structure/control over the eating? They also have to muck in with the making lunch rota which means that at least some of the week they have to be up by lunchtime.........

1. They have to strip and wash their own bedlinen once a week - again all about learning to be independent.

1. DC1 has been doing MOOCs in subjects that are of interest - Harvard music department have a lot that are good. Perhaps trying to do one of these that is relevant to A levels would help? There are a lot of drama resources online too including websites like the globe etc. Perhaps she could think about doing an Arts Award from Trinity Laban - she could look at the Gold Award syllabus and think about that (perhaps for dance?) or researching for an EPQ? DC1 is researching a composer and arranging one of their pieces for a string chamber group.

It is really hard for teens at the moment - mine have had nearly 60 performance activities cancelled between them as a result of CV as well as exams and the loss of school/friends so their MH can be a bit fragile. I try to be sympathetic and prod a bit rather than an all out nag.... You have my sympathy though!

re autism (I say this as a mum of an adult dd within spectrum)
first - she will find it difficult to see your point of view - (what I can train track thinking) this is partially down to inability from one thing to another - often with slower thinking process (does she get stuck on decisions? On stuck on one thing or activity? takes time to work through why she needs to change or your point of view? all part of the spectrum)
So how do you deal with this - (maybe not always!) Take time, don't corner her - she will go round & round in circles & you wont get anywhere. how does her mind work? does she get "maps" of alternatives? ie calmly get her to look at consequences on paper - like a mind map - She maybe brilliantly intelligent (& it doesn't help her to work out about living with other people & taking care of their needs & lets not forget she is an adolescent & they tend to be self centred anyway add on asd!) but it doesn't mean she is emotionally mature. I would say the best way to think is that for many (careful here as there are as many variations within the spectrum as outside of it) people within the spectrum they are younger than their age.
but remember what I first said take time & remember she may have difficulty in switching from one point of view to another

I haven't read the whole thread, I was getting too annoyed at some of the responses. I have an autistic 16 yr old DD (although she's in y12 so a slightly different set of challenges).

I would say that at this age it is not about laying down the law and doling out punishments. She is very nearly an adult, autistic or not. If you start getting heavy-handed now all you will do is completely destroy your relationship with her. You can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do and if you try by taking away her computer all you will and up with is a depressed 16-year-old who hates you and more than likely still refuses to do as you ask.

My DD has taught me not to make demands for no good reason. If I could explain my reasoning for something then she would go along with it happily without the need for imposing discipline. If I couldn't then it would make life very difficult. So looking at your list you need to work out why you want her to do those things. Broadly they can be grouped into taking care of her mental health, making sure she's prepared for the future that she wants to pursue and playing her role in family life. I would say that for good mental health sleep matters. That getting up in the morning and sleeping at night are good for mental health. But make it a discussion. Reach compromises. Let her suggest what exercise she'd like to do, or what chores she might be happy to contribute to. She's probably all at sea without the routine that school and her extra activities bring. So work with her to come up with a new routine, write it down, then say that you will be encouraging her to actually stick to it.

Above all else though make sure that she understands that you are doing this because you love her and you have concerns about her. Don't make it sound like you are angry with her or dislike her for what she is doing. This isn't about what you want from her, it's about what you want for her.

I think she needs encouragement not rigid rules. So don't force her to go out but explain why you're concerned with her staying in bed all day. Even an evening stroll when its quieter, maybe just with you.

@parietal

I wouldn't confiscate the computer because then she won't be able to do any school work.

I would set an online curfew time of (say) 10pm on school days.

But also, she is probably struggling massively with being locked down and cut off from the things she likes (friends / drama / dance etc). So she needs to have some way to connect with friends and something that is hers and makes her happy. If playing online with friends until 4am is her only social connection, then let her do that 1 or 2 nights per week. If you cut her off totally, that will not be good for her mental health.

This.

She needs the computer or her emotional health will suffer. I am battling several MH diagnoses at moment and computer has beena lifeline for me especially during lockdown.

What Norabird said. You really need to hear from the parents of ASD kids: I have one. You can explain to them clearly (whatever form that takes, as they're all different) what needs to happen and why, you can discuss different potential strategies to manage any distress that might cause, but you don't lay the law down unless you want WW3 with very little benefit to either of you. To parents of neurotypical children, this looks horribly like lack of discipline and/or spoiling, but you do what works at the end of the day. It isn't a right or wrong issue, no matter what others' judgement might be.

At 1am I go to bed and I unplug the router and take it with me. I hear DD huffing and tutting from her room, but she doesn't complain anymore because she knows in our house the internet goes off at 1am. I once read switching the router off all night affects broadband quality, but it really doesn't.

Goodness, your poor DD. She sounds amazing (so hardworking, committed and passionate) and it seems like she has lost so much in the current situation. She isn't a lazy teen - her past behaviour shows this - she is a young person who has suddenly had everything that gives her joy taken away from her. And I'm not surprised she isn't keen to engage with online substitutes, they might only remind her of how much she is missing. I would be prioritising her mental health right now, this is not the right time for discipline and punishments.

I'm sure she's struggling with lockdown etc, and probably more if she does have autism, depression and anxiety. However everything she is doing, lack of exercise, going to bed late, sleeping in,,not getting outside will make those things a whole lot worse. They also aren't an excuse for being lazy and unkind, the meal and chores I'm talking about here.

I agree with a PP and I'd give her time limits in her computer, the router goes to bed with you and your dh or off at 10pm. It'll take her some time to get back into normal sleeping patterns so expect a shit storm for a few days. I'd also set her various tasks each day to earn her food, clean clothes and of course her computer. Even if it's just, go for a walk, clean your room, play cards with the family. That sort of thing.

Being 16 is hell, it must be hideous in lockdown, but she's almost an adult and can't simply opt out of life and expect everyone around her facilitate that.

So what is she doing in September, back to school or colleague, and apprenticeship?

I'd also have to point out that DD (ASD diagnosis very late a bit over a year ago, hideous poor MH before that) can smell a row: your post says you need your plan for a row. It won't happen. She won't come. That level of tension will raise anxiety to a point where she simply will not BE ABLE to hear you. Think of it this way (probably a bad example coming up): if you're in the horrible position at work of having to do something quickly with someone else watching you, how often do you actually manage it? Or do you mess up umpteen times, smile gormlessly and have another go, while they roll their eyes - and this is a situation where you're unlikely to find yourself significantly worse off than you were. She's going to be entering the room for The Row, knowing that she will come out again with less freedom than she had.

Much better to have a one to one genuine discussion.

The bedtime and schedule thing wouldn't bother me at all. I have very little patience for people who insist that there is only one good and health schedule to follow and it's theirs- some of us are night owls and would be a lot happier and healthier, in mind and body, if we could fit in with our own body clocks.

When you're doing the dinner it's reasonable to make sure it's a dinner everyone you're catering for can eat, though. I often end up doing 4 or 5 versions of dinner as we all have different needs (something other people can be a bit about but which I prefer to wasted food or trying to make people eat food they hate).

And I agree with pp- a big "you have behaved badly and need a telling off and some penalties" scene is not the way to go at all.

It sounds like the game is really important to her - it’s her one form of socialising at the moment, and also her one form of fun.

I think you can absolutely pull her up on the refusal to heat up pasta sauce, and the way she speaks to you, because those are genuine unpleasant behaviour. But I would go easy on the computer and your wish for her to keep to normal hours. Those things are not “bad” they just don’t fit with your life.

Perrhaps there is a similar game with more UK/European based players she might consider swapping to?

HRTFT. Another parent here of a very high achieving ASC teenager. Please, please, please don't have this "discussion". You need to create a new routine, a new normal, you also need to offer something in return.

The majority of ASC kids (and adults) experience the world differently to those of us who are NT. Throw in a dose of teenagerism and COVID disruption and they may well struggle. It could be a very long road back if you push too hard.

OP I do think your list is a starting point but you need to whittle it down to a couple of points, the most important ones to you as a family.
I didn't realise you were intending to present the whole list today!
Going in with all those points, your DD will just be overwhelmed and very probably have a meltdown.

Please, don't have a "row"
Have a calm discussion, and give her time to process what is said

I’m with the people advocating taking a step back and looking for advice on autism support groups esp for girls. I have two boys with autism, but I’m also mid way through a PhD on autism in girls, and some of the approaches suggested here could really backfire. Not the right way to approach things 😔

We agreed that I am going to cancel all her online dance and drama lessons so she can take a break from having to even think about them for a bit.

As she does need exercise she is going to go for a bike ride with her brother every day - this will mean getting up earlier, as he wants to go immediately after lunch - so she has to be ready to go at 1:30.

She is a bit of a fan of super nanny. So we said that we will put pasta in a jar every time she does her gets up on time and does her bike ride. When she has 10 pieces of pasta I will buy her a "stuff pack" for the Sims. She rolled her eyes, but likes the idea of a pack for her game, so...

Don’t confiscate her computer. That’s too extreme,

But discuss what she can do so you feel you get a bit more back.