You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

@PatricksRum

Then you stated that Irish Travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act Kindly point where I specifically said irish travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act.

This is where I thought you were quoting the equality act and saying that Irish travellers aren't protected by it. I really didn't think I was reaching.

Race discrimination is if you are treated unfairly because of
Colour
Nationality
Ethnic origin
National origin
Where do Irish travellers fit into that?

Also, I do -completely agree with what @Blursula said in her post. You have been asked a lot of utterly awful questions here. I do think your question about how to see if someone is an Irish traveller is also awful, for reasons I posted in my last post.

@Blursula You're right in everything you say. And I will now disengage with her.
This isn't about Travellers so I'm not going to allow her to win and derail.

*Zebras you are haranguing OP in a way that I just can't stand by and see

You just want her to roll over and say. Yes you have proved me wrong. White people can suffer racism
She's declined to do it. She disagrees.
Can't you just leave it now

She said black people have 2x chance of dying in custody. She was right. But you had to find a way to make statistics say she was wrong

Then she said white people have 2x chance of getting into Oxford vs blacks people. She was right again. But you refused to accept it and harangued her trying to find some other explanation

Then finally you repeatedly asked her to say if she believes the Holocaust happened. That is accusing her of being a Holocaust denier and essentially a Nazi.
You had those posts deleted
You said you don't care because you are still right

And now you are going on and on about travellers. Not because you are one or have any connection to that community or care particularly about them but just because you think you can be proved right and she can be wrong

You are white. She is black. You are seriously bullying a black woman on a thread about black lives matter
Will you look at yourself

FOTTFSOF and when you get there FOSM

If that's a personal attack and I get deleted it'll be my first time in 12years on Mumsnet but it'll have been worth it.*

I apologise coffee as I've continued to engage in her derailing and in a way I'm undoing all the hard work you've put into these threads with your posts.
I refuse to let her dominate the threads anymore.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras You just won't stop will you. You won't stop. You just can let people have a discussion that isn't dominated by you and you keep demanding and demanding OP responds and responds to all your whataboutery even when asked to stop by others as well as OP.

I'm very sorry @PatricksRum as I feel I am letting you down by being driven away but for the sake of trying to be calm at bed time I will have to leave this thread for now.

Hooves let me just say you have driven me away from this thread as you have made it so much about you and made it impossible to have a reasoned discussion. I think you have probably driven off more people, I am sure you are putting people off from posting as you're just trying to dominate the thread, hectoring and filling it with so many of your own posts.

I actually think you should be ashamed of driving people away who are trying to learn and understand more about racism and how to combat it (especially those of us who are white). But no one is important as you are they - you want to be the only voice being heard and you demand people respond to you even when they have tried to politely ask you to stop haranguing OP and trying to dominate the thread.

I asked you to stop, OP and others asked you to stop but you are so self centred you wouldn't. I think you should seriously think about your own behaviour here (and motivation) but we have said it and said it already and you either can't or won't.

I can't engage with this any longer and I've tried to ignore but it's just too much. Sorry OP. I will come back tomorrow and hope that people realise how bad their behaviour that they are driving people away as they won't let any discussion take place that they can't control personally or isn't about them.

This is OP's thread but it's turned into the HoovesShow and it's shit. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

@qweryuiop I clarified what I meant up thread.

But this is why I'm challenging zebra. She isn't just saying it exists. She's saying it's the same or wore than racism towards black people.

No I'm not. At. All.

You are just making things up, chucking wild accusations out left right and centre and trying to pull some sort of Jedi mind tricks on us all "no, no, I didn't say that thing that is written there in black and white, no, no what I was saying was the exact opposite of what I wrote, no no what I am trying to do is ask you s question totally unrelated to anything I've posted"

Just admit - you made a mistake by claiming that Irish Travellers are not s distinct ethnic group protected in law.

Why do you have to double down and try and gas light us all?

@MyEyesightIsBadLetsGoForADrive
I'm sorry you feel driven away.
And I apologise for engaging because I'm allowing her to win.
I honestly won't engage with her again. We saw what she did when I did this on the end of thread 3, she called me a Holocaust denier and posted repeatedly i think I know why you won't answer but I won't say here
Take all the rest you need.
I hope to see you tomorrow, 6am Sharp.
No honestly, I hope you can return at some time. Now I am disengsging with her.

Respectively, not because you agree with me but I kindly ask others to not engage with zebras also. I'm not trying to be bossy, but I think us all, even those who disagree with me, wish this thread to remain relevant.

MyEyesightIsBadLetsGoForADrive

Fine. I'm going.

I have been pointing out that she is wrong to say that Irish Travellers are not recognised, and protected, under the Equality Act as an ethnic group.

You seem to think that it's ok to deny the existence of a group of people. Is that ok?

For some reason you seem to think it's ok for op to do it.

If we swapped "black people" for Irish Travellers in anything she's said, would it be ok?

This is just a mess.

Yes travellers are protected by law but it's not because they are white it's because they're travellers.

Also the thread title makes it seem that it's relevant when really right now the OP is talking about Black Lives.

This has caused the thread to become a debate and not a discussion.

Is when I'll next engage with you. Until you can identify how travellers are as oppressed as black people and therefore potentially fit into this discussion I will disregard your derail as attention seeking and white fragility.

They don't have to be as oppressed as anyone else, I'm quite sure they are oppressed enough. It's not a competition.

And nowhere in any legislation do you have to prove how oppressed you are, in relation to anyone else.

@iwilltaketwoplease

Exactly.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

But this is why I'm challenging zebra. She isn't just saying it exists. She's saying it's the same or wore than racism towards black people.

No I'm not. At. All.

You are just making things up, chucking wild accusations out left right and centre and trying to pull some sort of Jedi mind tricks on us all "no, no, I didn't say that thing that is written there in black and white, no, no what I was saying was the exact opposite of what I wrote, no no what I am trying to do is ask you s question totally unrelated to anything I've posted"

Just admit - you made a mistake by claiming that Irish Travellers are not s distinct ethnic group protected in law.

Why do you have to double down and try and gas light us all?

On the last thread when I asked if they thought black and white people experienced racism on the same scale, Hooves said:

Do white people experience racism on the same scale - well, some do yes, depending on who they are

Which completely contradicts what you’ve just said to Patrick. This is why I have been fucking done with this shit for a couple of threads now.

Which completely contradicts what you’ve just said to Patrick. This is why I have been fucking done with this shit for a couple of threads now.

Why is it contradictory?

Op said that I've said Irish Travellers suffer worse oppression than Black people - I haven't.

The post you've quoted was in the context of another poster describing the persecution of Roma and gypsies both during the Holocaust and in describing the murders and persecutions that are happening.

Sorry the quoting is not clear. Patrick is saying “But this is why I’m challenging zebra. She isn’t just saying it exists, she’s saying it’s the same or worse than racism towards black people.”

Hooves/zebra replied “No I’m not. At all.”

And went on to accuse Patrick of making things up when on the last thread Hooves had actually said “Do white people experience racism on the same scale [as black people] - well some do, yes, depending on who they are.”

Absolutely @iwilltaketwoplease

It cannot be had both ways.

If you post a provocative thread title which has no direct relevance to the subject matter to the only view someone wants to discuss, it will not end well.

And it hasn’t.

Thanks for posting that @AvranaKernsBestSpider
I knew she'd said that but didn't want to go through and find it.

Patrick if nothing else, I am pedantic to the core

Absolutely no point anymore

Carry on op. Make stuff up, quote inaccuracies, I'm sure you'll get people to agree with you and confirm how the sky is green because you say so.

Don't @ me anymore op.

You did it deliberately at the start of this thread clearly because you wanted to draw me back.

I'll.leave you to it.

hearhooves - patricks is not able to construct a clear argument, she also consistently contradicts herself and lacks flexibility of thought. That is what you are up against. Her ignorance of the traveller community and its protections under the equalities act are clear as day. There is no need to ask further questions as the previous posts illustrate her refusal to acknowledge travellers as an ethnic group and specifically her lack of understanding of irish travellers as an ethnic group.

It's provocative but it's not irrelevant

The thread title has caused people to ask if that's true and to examine their own attitudes. If it makes you feel uncomfortable or offended then it makes you look at why.

A few white people who have suffered odd instances of racial prejudice were persuaded to re-examine that and realise that this was not racism.

I asked my white DH the thread q. Can white people suffer racism? His initial response was to say yes and refer to being called racist names when he went on a business trip to China. However when I explained the need for a power differential for something to really be racism he could easily take that on board and change his view

So that's at least my view and his changed by this thread.

Right, there's so much I could say re. traveller communities and things that have been said here.

But, in the interests of moving the thread on. I've heard many times, especially in recent days:
"It's not enough to not be racist, you must be anti-racist."

Is anyone interested in discussing this statement?

I just wanted to post a few things from zebra to try to illustrate she isn't interested in BLM at all.

And I disagree. A white working class woman living on a council estate does not have much of a voice at all. You can't deny that a black male judge for example will have far more of a voice than a white working class woman?

If you are only going to address the issue of white men killing black men, which is what spurred my post, how much of an impact does that have? How many black men were killed by white men in the past year, or two years? What were the circumstances is was it crime related or was it caused by racism?

Which was the point I was making. Should we not be concentrating on removing systemic racism rather than from stopping white men killing black men, which is what I'm seeing being called for across SM?

What I was getting at was you would expect people who commit crimes to be arrested. The reason why they committed the crime shouldn't affect whether they are arrested or not, so if a larger percentage of black men, in comparison to population size, commit crime than it's right that they should be arrested.

Can you please not @ me? I am here on the thread, I don't need to be whistled to your side.

^The statistics show that in the last ten years 13 black men died in custody.

140 white men died in the same period.

White men were 25% more likely to die, adjusted for the total numbers in custody.^

And this is the post that really stood out to me. The first is something I posted. The response speaks volumes:

PatricksRum
@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
^*Let's look at it like this.
Let's say disabled as in wheelchair user.

There's a work place. It's office-based work.
The offices are in a high storey building.
This particular office is on the 20th floor.
The only way to access it is via a staircase.
The staircase comprises of circa 500 steps.
50% of the workforce are disabled.
They turn up to work and are met by their boss, they say, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow."
The next day, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss repeats, "that's a shame. Go home. Try again tomorrow"
Being disabled these employees know that no other workplace will hire then because they are disabled so every day they must continue to attend work and try to access the office.
Years go by and a new boss is appointed.
They turn up, "I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss says, "not much I can do. That's your problem not mine."
They explain, "we can't use the stairs. We need you to make it accessible"
10 years down the line.
"I can't use the stairs! I'm in a wheelchair"
The boss responds, "What do you want?!" "You have created this divide within the workforce whereby only 50% are working. Don't refer to us as able bodied. It's up to you to tell us how to fix the mess that we created?"^


Literally no idea what you are talking about.

*It's provocative but it's not irrelevant

The thread title has caused people to ask if that's true and to examine their own attitudes. If it makes you feel uncomfortable or offended then it makes you look at why.

A few white people who have suffered odd instances of racial prejudice were persuaded to re-examine that and realise that this was not racism.

I asked my white DH the thread q. Can white people suffer racism? His initial response was to say yes and refer to being called racist names when he went on a business trip to China. However when I explained the need for a power differential for something to really be racism he could easily take that on board and change his view

So that's at least my view and his changed by this thread.*
That's so encouraging to hear.

*It's not enough to not be racist, you must be anti-racist."

Is anyone interested in discussing this statement?*

Great statement.
By just being against racism isn't enough.
You have to actively use your privilege to fight it.
We are oppressed, shut down, shushed.
At times this means we are unable to actively tackle racism. We sometimes need you to give us that confidence. Help us to be heard.
Just thinking about when I was in college, the only black person, this boy repeatedly called black people monkeys, because no one challenged it I felt alone and thought I'd experience anger if I did.

I agree with that statement
I used to think I am OK because I am not racist. I do not go round calling people names or treating them differently
I have black and Asian friends
I must be OK

This thread made me realise that I just ignore race as an issue usually and that is not enough.

I had never spoken of it with my black friend in 15years friendship. I never asked her about her experiences so I never offered her any support. I thought it would be rude to bring it up. She has a white DH, her parents have passed away and she lives far from her siblings in a place with very few black people. I know now that she feels isolated and she does suffer discrimination and worries about her young sons because I finally asked her after 15 years if she's OK and if I can help.

I see how my black colleagues are not in positions of power at work but again I never thought it my business to say anything. I thought it might be offensive to do so. But being anti racist means using my power and privilege to challenge those structures.

I have been concerned for years about racism in mental health but I never felt I could or should do anything formally. I thought it would 'look odd' if a white woman talked about that. I see now that there are no black people at my workplace in a position to speak so I am going to use my power to make a platform and invite them up.

You have to realise that you have privilege to be able to use it.