You're white you haven't experienced racism 4

[PatricksRum]

Continued.

Where do Irish travellers fit into that

I quoted the information that says Irish Travellers are protected under the Equality Act because they are recognised as an ethnic group.

Last night all you kept saying to me, and other posters was educate yourself. Respectfully, maybe you should do the same.

You obviously aren't very well informed about other races and ethnic groups so maybe read about them before making erroneous claims.

A specific way of talking about racism against black people would be to say, frankly, that all non-black people harbour anti-black prejudice and that this is what needs to be addressed because that is what black people face.

If I recall correctly Di Angelo (“White Fragility”) talks about anti-black sentiment specifically. It’s a hard-hitting turn of phrase indeed.

I quoted the information that says Irish Travellers are protected under the Equality Act because they are recognised as an ethnic group.
I recognise they are an ethnic group.
However, the question I was trying to ask, how can I spot an Irish traveller in a line-up of white faces?
Some travellers fit into that because they can experience discrimination due to their ethnic origin but how can one spot an Irish traveller?

Which facial features do Irish travellers possess that are exclusive to Irish travellers?
How can one pick out an Irish traveller from a line-up of white people's faces?

Do you think this is acceptable? Do you?

It doesn't matter. They are recognised as an ethnic group under the Equality Act.

Why are you refusing to accept this?

You are just showing frankly your ignorance and intolerance for other ethnic groups.

You can't tell someone is a traveller just from looking at their face.

I mean you might be to see they're Irish , just like when I go to Kent the people there instantly know we're from London. It's the way we talk and the way we dress, they wouldn't be able to tell I'm from London just from my face alone.

So I understand OPs point.

*A specific way of talking about racism against black people would be to say, frankly, that all non-black people harbour anti-black prejudice and that this is what needs to be addressed because that is what black people face.

If I recall correctly Di Angelo (“White Fragility”) talks about anti-black sentiment specifically. It’s a hard-hitting turn of phrase indeed.*

This is an uncomfortable fact. I haven't actually bought it up because I knew it would be shut down.

She was convinced that the best way to tackle the problem was with the very young, so she divided her all-white children into two groups based on eye colour. She told the blue-eyed children that they were superior to their brown-eyed classmates, and she told the brown-eyed, who had to wear identifying collars, that they were less intelligent and poorly behaved. The result, according to her, was that blue-eyed children began to behave arrogantly and, after a short while, the brown-eyed children began to accept their lower position.

This makes me so sad because it's exactly how I feel on this thread.

I recognise they are an ethnic group.

Do you think I came down in the last shower? You said that they weren't recognised.

Now you're saying what you meant was what facial features do they have?

You are just being goady now.

[quote PatricksRum]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Which facial features do Irish travellers possess that are exclusive to Irish travellers?
How can one pick out an Irish traveller from a line-up of white people's faces?[/quote]
@Patricksrum

Honestly, that's not relevant. I am trying to be as fair to you as possible because some people are giving you a hard time and that isn't fair. But this point is misjudged, in my opinion.

The Equalities act states that ethnic origin is a protected characteristic, the same as skin colour is - Irish travellers are an ethnic origin. This is because ethnic identity is important - those who identify as travellers are proud of their heritage and shouldn't be expected to hide it. I get that they can hide it, and I get that your point is that they can hide it. I just strongly believe that they shouldn't have to. Just like I hate when I hear that some black people have chosen white-sounding names because this will give them a better chance of their CV being read. Or have tried to hide their blackness in any way to avoid racism and discrimination.

I'm not saying anti-traveller discrimination the same as anti-black discrimination. I'm just saying it exists.

*Do you think this is acceptable? Do you?

It doesn't matter. They are recognised as an ethnic group under the Equality Act.

Why are you refusing to accept this?

You are just showing frankly your ignorance and intolerance for other ethnic groups.*

Of course it matters.
You are insistent on bringing them up and claiming that black people aren't more oppressed than then so let's discuss how.

An Irish traveller is stood in a line-up with other white people.
I'm unsure how I pin point the Irish traveller. I'd be interested to know.

A black person is stood in a line-up with white people.
I can pin point the black person by their face alone.

It speaks volumes that you can't answer.
It's because they possess a privilege, their white skin tone. It means they are less likely than black people to experience oppression because it is less easy to pick them out on appearance alone.

You think I wouldn’t click on an only black lives matter thread?

I wouldn’t waste my time. I don’t subscribe to it. It would be deleted because it would be reported almost immediately.

I asked you repeatedly to quantify your statements because I thought it might be a sly pop.

I’d rather- if it were - you would just come out and say it. Sly and snide is not charming. But it leaves a nasty suspicion hanging there.

You said you stated we had different approaches. Maybe so. Long long after you said I was inflammatory, tried to silence me and ostracise me. I can’t quote because that thread has disappeared. I believe I pointed out we had different approaches well before that.

I wanted a response to one question. Agreed that you didn’t have to give one but asked that you stop leaving insinuations. And lo....

I am on your side with regards to BLM. If I believe all lives matter I’m entitled to that thought. But I also get to disagree with your approach. I do think it is divisive. And you yourself said the post title was provocative. So it was - hence the responses that you chose to shut down because you don’t think it matters on the thread. If you are repeatedly getting told it does, then why are we all wrong?

And sorry if I can’t read every single word or post on this thread. I was at work.

If I chose to comment on your statement it was because it was one of the ones I read. I didn’t get time to read a lot. But that one grated and so I commented. You know that it was an ill judged statement.

I’ve felt pushed and stressed On this thread just the same as you. I’ve tried to not make any ill judged statements and I’ve held my tongue because this is not the time or place.

You may have taken umbrage at me. I’ve no worries about that. I’m disappointed but that is on me. But I dislike the way that anyone who had a kind word about what I had to say also were treated unkindly.

I won’t make any excuses about what I write. I stand by it all. And mostly I hope it is clear enough for me not to be able to twist it inside out and back to front if I’m called upon to justify it.

*Honestly, that's not relevant. I am trying to be as fair to you as possible because some people are giving you a hard time and that isn't fair. But this point is misjudged, in my opinion.

The Equalities act states that ethnic origin is a protected characteristic, the same as skin colour is - Irish travellers are an ethnic origin. This is because ethnic identity is important - those who identify as travellers are proud of their heritage and shouldn't be expected to hide it. I get that they can hide it, and I get that your point is that they can hide it. I just strongly believe that they shouldn't have to. Just like I hate when I hear that some black people have chosen white-sounding names because this will give them a better chance of their CV being read. Or have tried to hide their blackness in any way to avoid racism and discrimination.*
I understand it exists. It's abhorrent and disgusting.*

I'm not saying anti-traveller discrimination the same as anti-black discrimination. I'm just saying it exists.*
But this is why I'm challenging zebra. She isn't just saying it exists. She's saying it's the same or wore than racism towards black people.
You can read thread 2, in particular, which illustrates this.

Some Gypsies and Travellers are protected against discrimination on the basis of their ethnic origins.
This is the entire point.
You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers. They aren't included in this*

This is what you wrote op.

Specifically Irish Travellers aren't included in discrimination protection on the grounds of ethnic origins

You wrote that. Now you're saying I recognise they are an ethnic group - well, you didn't two minutes ago.

And you're trying to pretend now that rather than saying they weren't protected under the Equality Act on grounds of ethnicity that you meant to ask how they can by identified by appearance.

Why shouldn't you be challenged on this?

You are insistent on bringing them up and claiming that black people aren't more oppressed than then so let's discuss how.

No I am not. I have not once said that anyone is anymore or any less oppressed than anyone else. I don't view it as a competition, although clearly you do.

I am simply challenging your assertion that white people can't suffer racism.

I and others have pointed out that this isn't the case because there are groups of white people, recognised in law, who do suffer discrimination based on race.

Yet still you just will not accept it.

Then you stated that racism can only affect non white people - not true.

Then you stated that Irish Travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act - not true.

All that I am doing is pointing out to you that certain things you are saying are not true. They aren't a matter of opinion. They are fact, recognised in law.

Why are you so determined to insist that only black people can suffer racism? I don't get it. Just because other people are sadly, subjected to it, it doesn't diminish your experience in any way.

This is what you wrote op.
To clarify I wrote:
You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers. They aren't included in this.
To explain:
You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers in this thread
They aren't included in this movement, in this thread, in this discussion.
*
Specifically Irish Travellers aren't included in discrimination protection on the grounds of ethnic origins*
That isn't what I said. That's how you interpreted it.*

You wrote that. Now you're saying I recognise they are an ethnic group - well, you didn't two minutes ago.*
I didn't
*
And you're trying to pretend now that rather than saying they weren't protected under the Equality Act on grounds of ethnicity that you meant to ask how they can by identified by appearance.*
No. I posted that question after so repeated it.*

Why shouldn't you be challenged on this?*
How can one pick an Irish traveller out from a line-up of white faces?

No I am not. I have not once said that anyone is anymore or any less oppressed than anyone else. I don't view it as a competition, although clearly you do.

You have. When someone stated that if an Irish traveller was black they would experience more racial prejudice you said no.

@PatricksRum

*Honestly, that's not relevant. I am trying to be as fair to you as possible because some people are giving you a hard time and that isn't fair. But this point is misjudged, in my opinion.

The Equalities act states that ethnic origin is a protected characteristic, the same as skin colour is - Irish travellers are an ethnic origin. This is because ethnic identity is important - those who identify as travellers are proud of their heritage and shouldn't be expected to hide it. I get that they can hide it, and I get that your point is that they can hide it. I just strongly believe that they shouldn't have to. Just like I hate when I hear that some black people have chosen white-sounding names because this will give them a better chance of their CV being read. Or have tried to hide their blackness in any way to avoid racism and discrimination.*
I understand it exists. It's abhorrent and disgusting.*

I'm not saying anti-traveller discrimination the same as anti-black discrimination. I'm just saying it exists.*
But this is why I'm challenging zebra. She isn't just saying it exists. She's saying it's the same or wore than racism towards black people.
You can read thread 2, in particular, which illustrates this.

@patricksrum

If that has been your point on the last two pages, you've not made it well.

I really think that both you and hooves should step back from this argument because you're focusing on the one thing that doesn't matter. From everything I've read of Hooves (I'll admit, I didn't read the first two threads), you actually agree on the bigger issue, which is that Black Lives Matter.

Then you stated that Irish Travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act
Kindly point where I specifically said irish travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act.

@qweryuiop if you read the threads you will see in the beginning, I think it was, a traveller posted about their discrimination.
My response was along the lines of
^I'm sorry that is wrong that you experienced that
^
Believe me, ask other posters, I've said that prejudices against everyone including travellers is wrong.

@qweryuiop in fact, I remember making a post about it and their ethnic origin stating it was wrong.

These threads have descending into something really quite appalling. While catching up I had to actually check whether I had read some things correctly. Things like:

You cannot even start to define who black people are. Are you able to understand that at all?

What are you doing to use your western privilege?

you sure as shit should be able to define the term black.

try being Welsh living in England for a week.

Calling the OP a Holocaust denier because she didn’t engage in a derail about the holocaust when she is talking about Black Lives Matter?

Asking her what a black person is, repeatedly, and sending examples saying ‘what about this person - are they black?’

And then something about someone who worked with a black guy once who said something that wasn’t true about a white guy.

Now the latest thread seems to be an endless debate about travellers. The last one descended into people meticulously picking apart statistics as if to demonstrate that it’s not true that black people have fewer opportunities and are at a disadvantage in society. I just don’t understand the motives of so many posters here.

Now I haven’t agreed with the tone or content of everything the OP has said throughout these threads but COME ON! Is this really a bunch of adults on here?

Yes other groups have suffered, and acknowledging BLM does not take away from that suffering. We should use our personal experiences of suffering to harbour empathy to support the cause.

Yes all lives matter, but right now we are talking about the pressing, urgent issue of black lives.

Black Lives Matter.

Zebras you are haranguing OP in a way that I just can't stand by and see

You just want her to roll over and say. Yes you have proved me wrong. White people can suffer racism
She's declined to do it. She disagrees.
Can't you just leave it now

She said black people have 2x chance of dying in custody. She was right. But you had to find a way to make statistics say she was wrong

Then she said white people have 2x chance of getting into Oxford vs blacks people. She was right again. But you refused to accept it and harangued her trying to find some other explanation

Then finally you repeatedly asked her to say if she believes the Holocaust happened. That is accusing her of being a Holocaust denier and essentially a Nazi.
You had those posts deleted
You said you don't care because you are still right

And now you are going on and on about travellers. Not because you are one or have any connection to that community or care particularly about them but just because you think you can be proved right and she can be wrong

You are white. She is black. You are seriously bullying a black woman on a thread about black lives matter
Will you look at yourself

FOTTFSOF and when you get there FOSM

If that's a personal attack and I get deleted it'll be my first time in 12years on Mumsnet but it'll have been worth it.

@PatricksRum

This is what you wrote op. To clarify I wrote: You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers. They aren't included in this. To explain: You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers in this thread They aren't included in this movement, in this thread, in this discussion. * Specifically Irish Travellers aren't included in discrimination protection on the grounds of ethnic origins* That isn't what I said. That's how you interpreted it.*

You wrote that. Now you're saying I recognise they are an ethnic group - well, you didn't two minutes ago.*
I didn't
*
And you're trying to pretend now that rather than saying they weren't protected under the Equality Act on grounds of ethnicity that you meant to ask how they can by identified by appearance.*
No. I posted that question after so repeated it.*

Why shouldn't you be challenged on this?*
How can one pick an Irish traveller out from a line-up of white faces?

You wrote this

Some Gypsies and Travellers are protected against discrimination on the basis of their ethnic origins.
This is the entire point.
You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers. They aren't included in this

In reference to the grounds for racial discrimination under the Equality Act.

You said that Irish Travellers were not recognised under the Equality Act.

You even underlined bits.

How can one pick an Irish traveller out from a line-up of white faces?

Why does this matter? The Equality Act does not define racial discrimination as being based on the ability to pick someone out in a line up.

If a black man sends in a CV but gets overlooked for a job because of his name is that discrimination? Yes, it is, but no one had to pick him out in a line up for it to happen.

How are Travellers evicted from sites if no one can identify them?
How are the hounded out of places if they can't be identified?

You are just making up criteria in your head in order to defend your position that no white people can suffer discrimination on the grounds of race. You're clearly starting to realise you were mistaken but are now doubling down by making up arbitrary criteria that no one else, least of all the Equality Act apply.

Kindly point where I specifically said irish travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act.

In your post where you underlined bits. Read through your posts - you'll see

Then you stated that Irish Travellers are not recognised under the Equality Act
Nope. I said they don't fit into this thread, BLM or this discussion.

How are Travellers evicted from sites if no one can identify them?
Because they're in caravans, travelling.

When you can answer this:
How can one pick an Irish traveller out from a line-up of white faces?
Is when I'll next engage with you. Until you can identify how travellers are as oppressed as black people and therefore potentially fit into this discussion I will disregard your derail as attention seeking and white fragility.

Why do you think they used racial discrimination instead of racism?
Why did they define racial discrimination as discrimination
based on
colour
nationality
ethnic origin
national origin.

Irish travellers don't fit into this.

You wrote the above

Then you wrote this

Some Gypsies and Travellers are protected against discrimination on the basis of their ethnic origins.
This is the entire point.
You repeatedly bring up Irish travellers. They aren't included in this

Then you wrote this

Race discrimination is if you are treated unfairly because of

Colour
Nationality
Ethnic origin
National origin

Where do Irish travellers fit into that